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Coming up in Episode 17
Tim Beynon: Hello and welcome to the Charity show, the podcast
for Charity Insiders by Charity Insiders. Please rate, follow or subscribe to
us on your usual podcast platform and here's what's coming up in episode 17.
Piers Townley: Mark Zuckerberg has followed Musk with profound
changes to Meta. So it his s early days so far that Zuckerberg's announcement
this week that the platform is radically scaling back on his content moderation
and leaving it to quote community notes similar to the approach of Musk has
taken with X. But the implications, for third sector, are, potentially huge.
Tim Beynon: We want to hear all your charity achievements, all
your charity first, all those amazing things that you're doing, things you've
got planned for the year ahead, things you're hoping to achieve, things you're
doing at the charity over the course of the next 12 months.
Sally Williams: I do feel, especially in the UK, they get a
really bad rap, especially in the press. You know, they either haven't given
too much or they've given to the wrong charity or they're it for their own, you
know, egos or wrong reasons. And I don't see any of that. The people I've dealt
with all along have just been the loveliest, most genuine kind people.
Tim Beynon: Obviously we live in a digital age. We talk a lot
about digital in terms of what we can do to market digitally and emails, so on
and so forth, but you're right, a simple card in the post and the rnlive ended
up with a 1.4 million pound gift. Hello, happy new year and welcome to episode
17 of the Charity show with me, Tim Beynon, Head of Marketing engagement at
Fire Fighters Charity.
Piers Townley: And me, Piers Townley, PR Manager at the Brain Tumour Charity.
Tim Beynon: So, Pier's good to see you, we're back, it's 2025. I
know we re're pretty much halfway through January already, but Happy New Year.
Good to see you. Did you have a good break?
Piers Townley: Yeah, really good, Tim, really good. As we talk
about it goes so quick, so quick you have what, you want some time to switch
off and then you want some time to cook the Christmas dinner and you want some
time to go and see people. It just gone in a flash and you're ride nearly
halfway through January and it's full steam ahead. So yeah, yeah, back straight
back into it. We're good. Didn't manage to switch off totally. There was a
cheeky little cheque in with emails, little cheeky cheque in with charity
social media. It's very hard, I think from any sort of comms team Perhaps
working in all sorts of teams in the charities. It's very hard to switch off in
this 247 culture that we sometimes have. But yeah manage that fairly, fairly
well this week, this first week or so back has been as I say full on. We've got
a magazine that the charity, the Brain Tumour charity does called the Greay
Matters coming out in March is new, the new issue rather and that's the Brain
Tumour Awareness Month Bam as we call it's a big hero campaign awareness month
for the brain tumour community in the UK and obviously our great matters hits
there and we're doing an interview with one of our high profile supporters, the
actress, Hollywood actress Amy Nutle. She supported us for over a year now
since she's losing her mom to a brain tumour. So we've got to be golf photo
shoot with her next week. So it's just running around like headless chickens
making sure all the factors are in place. So this photo shoot goes well. But
yeah, so that's just been dominating my first week back. How about you?
Tim Beynon: Yeah, good, good, thanks. Yeah, likewise. It takes me
a little while to sort of get back into things after Christmas. Such a weird
time isn't it? And then when you get back in January it does take a little
while to get you get back into the flow of things but had had a good break like
yourself it was nice just to escape a little bit. but yeah, you know as you
inevitably do you always just keep a little line on what's going on and also
all credit to my team who did a great job over the course of Christmas of shed
pre scheduling all the content that goes out on social. So you know it was
lovely to see you know every day or something especially around Christmas and
New year some you know suitable appropriate messaging going out to show our
support and remind community that we're here for them throughout the period and
all that kind of stuff. And that was all down to some very fantastic sort of
comms work and pre planning and scheduling in advance which I can't take any
credit for at all. So that was, that was great and good to see but Christmas
itself for me lovely, nice and nice and relaxed. Apart from the entire family
getting Norov Viirus on new over the course of New Year which is pretty grim.
but apart from that, yeah it all, it was not too bad. Thanks. It was a good
break and good to be back but yeah it's been, also been good I think in
January, as is inevitably always the case. Just kind of have a think about the
year ahead and I think what we've got coming up and for us on the charity show here,
I think it's a great opportunity and this is our first episode back in 2025.
Just to remind everybody, all our listeners that, you know, we're really,
really keen to share your stories as well. We want to hear all your charity
achievements, all your charity first, all those amazing things that you're
doing, things you've got planned for the year ahead, lessons you've learned
along the way, things you're hoping to achieve or new, new things you're doing
at the charity over the course of the next 12 months. If you'd like to sort of
spotlight an area of your work or champion some of your
00:05:00
Tim Beynon: fantastic people, then please do get in touch, let us
know what's going on with you. All the links are in the show notes and come on
to the show, tell everyone else about it. Yeah, be a part of the show. We
looking forward to it.
Piers Townley: Major donor philanthropy is crucial to income
generation for many charities. But across fundraising teams is perhaps one of
the longest and trickiest donor pipelines to manage. Where do you find your
major donors? How do you approach them, how do you nurture them once you've
identified them? And how do you ensure that your major donors hang around for
the long term? It's not exactly a world Tim Oai know a great deal about, but
Sally Williams, now head of philanthropy at the Royal College of Physicians,
certainly does. We caught up with her at the tail end of last year when she was
still in her previous role as senior philanthropy manager at the Institute of
Cancer Research. Hi, Sally, welcome to the show. It's, good to talk to you
today. Today about all things philanthropic. I have to be careful when I say
that. I always get my tongue.
Sally Williams: So many people cannot say it. Trust me, you're in
a good community.
Piers Townley: You look at it and then itly goes, doesn't it? So
tell us a little bit about your background. First of all, because you, you
started off in the armedaces, didn't you spend many, many years actually in the
armed services? you talk us through that.
Sally Williams: well, it seems like a whole lifetime ago now. I
served for 24 years in the British army, joined when I was 19 back insh the
early 90s. served all over the world. Some nice places, Canada and Kenya was
quite nice and, London, but also the trickier places like, Iraq and
Afghanistan. So, yeah, all over the place, really. but 24 years was quite a
long time.
Piers Townley: It sounds like a small question because I'm going
to ask you the obvious thing. I'm sure it's a bigger question, really. Did you
enjoy it? Did you enjoy your, arms?
Sally Williams: I did. I expected to do about six years when I
joined. I thought, I'll travel and meet people. And then it sort of went on
from there, really. And I thought, well, I'm okay at this. It's quite good. I
quite enjoy it. The PA is all right. and then it. Six years turned into 24
years, and that was it. But after 22 years as a full career, and you get a
military pension and things like that. So I'd done enough time. I'd got married
by then and he was starting to drag a little bit. my mum passed away very
suddenly and I thought, no, if I don't leave now, I never will and I need to do
something different.
Piers Townley: So why the third sector? I. It's a completely
different pace of life.
Sally Williams: It is. I just couldn't imagine ever working for,
for a profit company. I just. I just couldn't imagine it in myself in that
position. I think, I still feel as though I'm serving and doing good by being
in the charity sector. It's a wonderful space to be in. I mean, you both know
that the people in the sector are incredible. It's doing amazing things. I'd
always done a bit of fundraising through my military career, as you do, you
know, bake sales and fancy dress things and, you know, that kind of stuff. I'd
supported military charities, of course. in my first operational tour in
Bosnia, the early 90s, we took a load of truckloads of toys over to the orphans
over there. And I think that's just been instilled in me from my parents really
as well. So all my life I've done fundraiseising type things and it seemed
quite a natural thing to do to try and work in the third sector.
Tim Beynon: It's a really interesting career m move and we see,
we speak to people on the show and who perhaps have moved from a corporate
world into, into the charity sector. But this is the first in terms of moving
from a, career in the armed services into the, sector. Certainly for us on this
show would. I mean, it's a difficult question for me to. I've got no idea. But
is there any similarities? Do you see, is anything in common between your life
in the army and your life in the third sector?
Sally Williams: I think, of course it's very, very different, but
there are similarities. there's a lot of change. You have to be quite
adaptable. I think a lot of the skills I learned in my military career, are
very transferable to our sector. I feel that I'm very resourceful. You, if
something goes wrong, I could think, okay, think on my feet. How do we change
that or rectify that? I think I'm fairly adaptable and I'm used to change and,
resilience is another thing I've had to learn and I think in the third sector
especially, that's very, very useful to be, resilient in role, I think,
organationalal skills. I think I'm fairly organised and I think that definitely
comes from my military background. the military teaches you leadership skills
in bucket loads from, you know, from a young private soldier all the way up
through your career. You have leadership, courses and things to do all the
time. So I think there is a lot of transferable skills across into the third
sector. Remind me of the original question because I think I've gone off
that'it.
Tim Beynon: You answered it. You answered it brilliantly. it is
fascinating, is it just to see those, those links between the two by totallyly
understand those transferable skills and out of interest, any of your
00:10:00
Tim Beynon: peers when you're in the army, any of them. Are you
aware of any of them moving into a similar role or into the 3rd/b or are you on
your.
Sally Williams: Own level, not into fundraising? I think some
have gone on to work for military charities and actually I worked for a
military charity when I left the army because again, I thought that was the
natural thing to do, natural progression. But I wasn't in fundraising and
that's what I really wanted to do. So some of my peers have gone on to do other
roles within military charities, which is nice to see as well, and use their
skills in the sector.
Tim Beynon: Fantastic. Good to see very deserving charities as
well, of course.
tell us a little bit about your role today then. And tell us a
little bit about the Institute of Cancer Research and also what a senior
philanthropy M getting my tongue around that as well. Senior flanthropy manager
does, I must admit, looking through sort of job titles you keep. You have look
on job boards and things. It's not a title you see very often. Senior
philanthropy man. He's usually senior fundraising or senior major donors or
whatever. So tell us a little bit about your role specifically.
Sally Williams: The Institute of Cancer Research was formed in
1909 with the Royal Marsden. But then when the NHS was formed in 1948, we had
to split away from, the Royal Marsden. So the Royal Marsden is a partner
hospital of the Institute for Cancer Research. We're across two sites, one in
Chelsea and one in Sutton. We have 850 brilliant researchers and clinicians
doing all kinds of cancer research, from basic molecular cancer research to all
the way up to translational research. That's usually a word I can't say.
Translational, research and clinical trials. we train. I say we, I don't, but
we. The ICR trains half of the UK's oncologists. We have a brilliant PhD,
studentship programme. And when I arrived at the ICR, I thought each laboratory
would look at a different type of cancer. This would do breast cancer, this was
laboratory would do prostate cancer, etc. But it's not like that at all.
There's so much collaboration across the laboratories. We have, centreers
looking at protein degradation, immunotherapy, M, radiography, all aspects of
cancer research and they all collaborate together and then look at the
different types of cancer within that. So it's quite an amazing place. The
breadth and the depth of the research absolutely blows my mind on a daily basis.
and we're right at the coal face of the science, if you like. So that's the ICR
in a very potted history, I guess, and we've made a lot of discoveries along
the way as well. So the ICR was, the first to deduce that, DNA damage was, the
basic cause of cancer. we discovered that, ah, the carcogn in, cigarette smoke
caused cancer. They discovered the BRCAT2 gene, which is sometimes called the
Angelina Joe, gene. So I've had a lot of discoveries on the way, and we've had
two successful, drug discoveries of abaratoryone and cappiva certib, ones for
prostate cancer and ones for breast cancer. So it's a pretty amazing place to
work and to be doing my role to enable or to help that kind of drug discovery
and cancer research happen is just the best job in the world.
so to go on to your second question, what is a senior
Philanthropy Manager? I think a lot of charities do have major gifts and
philanthropy officers, sometimes they're one and the same. But I think, what do
I do at the icr? My role is to, in a nutshell, build relationships with people
who might have the capacity to invest in cancer research, and allow those
discoveries of the future in a nutshell, that's what I do. I, build
relationships with people, and network with people and bring them in to see the
science and hopefully that's what they want to do. I know that makes it sound
so easy and such a simple job, but in a nutshell, that's what a philanthropy
manager does. manages the programme of philanthropy within an organisation.
Tim Beynon: Such an important job. I must say, as a cancer
survivor myself, I'm hugely grateful to organisation like yours for the amazing
work that you do, because I probably wouldn't be here without, without you
guys. So, yeah, hats off to you for sure.
Piers Townley: What are the, what are the key considerations in
your role, Sally, with, you know, the key donors, the major donors? What, when
it comes to developing and maintaining relationships with them, what are the
kind of. What's the blueprint for that at the very early stages of
relationship?
Sally Williams: Oh, my goodness. I think talking to people and
more importantly, listening to them, a lot of people just talk out donors and
want or prospects and go meet them and say, here are all the amazing things,
pretty much what I just did to you. This is all the amazing stuff about the
icr, but don't listen to people. Listening to a prospect or listening to a
donor is so important because you need to get it right. another consideration
is appreciate the time that it takes to build those relationships. It can take
12 months, 18 months plus to be in a position where either, you feel
comfortable to ask a prospect for a significant gift or they want to say to
you, okay, I really like what you do, I like your charity. What can I do for
you? How much can I give you? What projects can I invest in? So it's really
about building the relationships, taking the steps to do that, taking the time
and appreciating
00:15:00
Sally Williams: the time. And I think, a charity needs to invest
in their major gift programme as well, and not just assume that it can just
happen or somebody can just do it as a second dream role. It really takes time
and investment.
Tim Beynon: It's not a quick win, is it? Major gifts are not a
quick win.
Sally Williams: And that's why it needs to be alongside other
income streams as well. I mean, I think, pe, as somebody we used to work with,
the brain tumour charity, used to say to me, o ah, I couldn't do your job. I
couldn't do your job. It's too involved with the donors. And she was involved
on, the kind of IND individual giving side where that's lots of people giving
smaller gifts, which is Equally as brilliant and important, but it's just the
other end of the scale. Small amounts of people given those larger gifts.
Piers Townley: I've struck, Sally, because obviously, yes, we
have worked together and you know, the likes of John Wden and some of our,
major, major donors that we had at the Brain Tum charity, how close you became
to them. So you became not just someone who was a representative of the
charity, but you can't reun it. You became a friend, you became a friend of the
family. You held their hand when they needed you, metaphorically and kind of
literally, especially when they were doing some of their amazing fundraising
and especially when they've been touched, so deeply. I mean, I never saw any of
this, but are there conflicts that, that come up with this sort of
relationship? Are there kind of things that you have to then deal with almost
on a regular basis or is it just a case by case?
Sally Williams: I think it is a case by case. I've never
thankfully experienced any real conflict. Sometimes as little niggles or
trickiness, I should say that, you know, you've got to appreciate the donor has
given or is it, or might give a significant amount of money and that's a big
deal for them, that's a big decision and they're, they need to trust you and
invest if they want to invest in your cause. and you've got to appreciate that.
But equally you could be a really small team or even a one man band trying to
do everything and it might just take a little bit longer than they might
expect. so it's just trying to balance that really. but there I haven't really,
I've been very fortunate not to have had any people that are too tricky.
Generally major donors and philanthropists and people in that position are very
nice people and I do feel, especially in the uk, they get a really bad rap,
especially in the press. You know, they either haven't given too much or
they've given to the wrong charity or they're doing it for, they're doing it
for their own, you know, egos or wrong reasons. And I don't see any of that.
The people I've dealt with all along have just been the loveliest, most
genuine, kind people who are passionate in cancer research, either in brain
tumours where peers and I used to work, or cancer research in more generally
where I am now.
Tim Beynon: Do have you ever found a tool that donors perhaps
have asked for their money to be ring fenced and spent in a certain area and
that might not be what, how the charity would want to do that. Or perhaps the
charity doesn't have a policy of ring fencing at all. What is that? Often does
that come up?
Sally Williams: I mean, I can only speak for the charities I've
worked for, obviously. and it is different to all charities. But, yes, there is
a balance between people wanting to restrict their gifts into a certain
project, which is brilliant, of course, but equally, you know, charities need
to switch the lights on, charities need to pay salaries and, you know, all of
those things. So there is a balance. I like both gifts. I think it's when
someone gives you an un streetited gift, it's actually so humbling because they
really trust you, they like the organisation, you know, that's really nice. But
equally, I understand that projects are really important to donors as well and
seeing the impact of that project all the way through. so we. I've experienced
both and both are equally as rewarding and important, I think.
Piers Townley: I think that speaks to your particular skillir,
Sally, and obviously I'mbiased I've worked with you, but fundraisers and legacy
teams and major donor teams across the skill set is understanding the needs of
the donors and the needs of the charity and making those two line up. And
obviously ites, if it goes well and is smoothly, then that'site quite a
straightforward relationship. But the manipulation of different needs is
something I guess you have to manage on an individual basis.
Sally Williams: Yes. And it's the longevity of these
relationships that I particularly enjoy because somebody might have funded, you
know, one project for a couple of years, then they've got to know you, more on
the charity more so then they might give you an unrestricted gift, then there
might be a project that comes up that, you know, they're going to be
particularly interested in. Just go and talk to them about it and then they
might want to do that as well. I think the beauty of being a philanthropy manager
is building those relationships with people to a certain point where it's not
that uncomfortable to ask. You know, we can be very British and talking about
money and it's a bit scary. but if you've met the prospect or a donor, that
many times, you know them, you know what inspires them to give,
00:20:00
Sally Williams: you know, what they like. To be in that position
to make an appropriate ask is fantastic. And like, as I say, it can take a long
time to get to that point once you're there. Such an impactful relationship.
Piers Townley: Really interesting to hear Sally's thoughts on
major donors. We've got the second part of that interview coming up shortly.
But before that, Tim, what third section news have you spotted
this week?
Tim Beynon: Got a couple of really interesting stories this week
that caught my eye for a couple of very different reasons. First off, just
because fascinated by gifts and whees and legacies, it's probably an area that
we haven't covered enough on the show. Looking forward to covering it a bit
more, in the future. But this is a story about an R and L I lifeboat that's
named after a man, who gifted, the charity £1.4 million in his will. So a
really, really sizable, donation, and gift, legacy gift from this, this one
guy. And this was a chap called. He's a professional musician, a chap called
Roy Holloway. and he left the vast majority of his savings to the RNI, when he
died, in June 2014 at the age of 81. Alth know that seems like quite a long
time ago, but now, 10 years after, his passing, that donation has helped to
fund a new Shannon class lifeboat for the RN LI's Arlow Lifeboat Station, which
is Ireland's oldest lifeboat station. And the boat has been named Roy Holloway
in his honour. Now, that in itself is an amazing story. One by four million
pound gift is, incredible and very generous to say the least. But the amazing
thing about this story, and this is a bit that really caught my eye. It's
believed that Roy had very little awareness of the R and the light until one
Christmas when a friend sent him a card with a lifeboat on the front. The card
featured a bright orange boat battling through rough seas. And Roy liked it so
much that he brought it out every Christmas to display on his piano. So, quite
incredible really. And I think the thing that really struck me about that is
that the power of, it wasn't really marketing, it was a card. He was sent a
card and that'there was enough to instil something in him that, you know, made
him think about the work of the R andli and the work of those volunteer
lifeboat men and women and the work they do. And there's so much so that it
meant so much to him over such long period of time that he ended up leaving the
vast majority of his estate, to the rnni. So there you go, something to think
about for legacy marketers out there.
Piers Townley: that's really interesting to, isn't it? Because
just, just before Christmas we were speaking about Christmas cards, weren't we,
in charity Christmas cards and you know, do the younger generation send cards
these days? And how important are Cards to charities and there you go. It's
these subtle stories that like, okay, this is an old legacy kind of way of
doing marketing Fority it's working. It's still working. It's still important.
Tim Beynon: Yeah, there you go. I mean obviously we live in a
digital age. We talk a lot about digital in terms of what we can do to market
digitally and emails and so on and so forth. But you're right, a simple card in
the Post and the IR Andli ended up with a 1.4 million pound gift, as a result.
So incredible there that old school direct milil marketing still obviously has
a place in this world which is great. Also just a little quote here. He said
it's understood that he mentioned to family before passing that he would leave
quote a little something to the rnli as he admired the work and bravery of the
lifeboat Crewise. So if I ever got to the stage where 1.4 million is a little
something, I'd be very happy. So yeah, amazing story. So that's the first one
that caught my eye. The second story. I don't know if you're a Snoop Dogg fan.
Psy.
Piers Townley: Yeah.
Tim Beynon: Sn all his albums, Dr. Trey, Snoop Dogg, has worked
with artists including Stevie One. Obviously he's an A list, celebrity
musician. Worked with artists like Stevie under Katy Perry, Mariah Carey, all
the big names. But now a small London charity, for people with learning
disabilities has joined that list. So the rapper with Dr. Dre sampled a song
called Watermelon Fantasy which was released by the charity Daylight Studio in
2018. and that that has featured on his new single Outer de Blue. You got it PS
on the, on your Spotify.
Piers Townley: Oh yeah, I've got it on the vinyl and everything.
Tim Beynon: Anyway, it featedatured on that single which is
released on the 13th of December. And Watermelon Fantasy is performed by three
artists with learning disabilities and produced by the founder of Daylight
Studio and one of its trustees. Snoop Dogg and Dr. Dre have between them sold
millions of records and have 42 Grammy Award nominations. So, you know, this
has taking this small charity, to the big time and the people who featured in
it, you know, to new heights as well. So Tina Bruins, who features on the track
and lives in supported housing in North London said, I was shocked. I remember
being like, what? I didn't know it was going to be released by Dr. Dre and
Stoop Dog. I thought, no, I thought it was a fantasy. She said, so imagine that
for Tina. What an incredible thing she, she's features on this track. She has
learning disabilities, she works with this charity. she contributed to this
song
00:25:00
Tim Beynon: and it's been sampled by one of the biggest musicians
on the planet. So amazing, amazing for her. Just to sort of add to that in
terms of where it's been featured this song, out of the Blue, it's been
featured in the trailer for Back In Action, a new Netflix film due to be
released in January this month starring Cameron Diaz and Jamie Fox. It's been
on the American football video game Madden NFL 25 and in an Amazon Music Live
series where Snoop Dogg performs songs from throughout his career. So incredible.
So there you go. And proceeds from the collaboration will be split equally
between Bruins and two other artists with learning disabilities. So they are
directly benefiting from this single. so the other two people benefiting are
Mandy Pridis and Cedric Letu Alemmbo, with production shares being donated back
to the charity itself. So not only ah, are they you know, obviously receiving
incredible profile as result of this, but hopefully that small charity in
London is going to hugely benefit from this worldwide exposure with this
Snooped Dog track. So yeah, amazing stuff. What about you Peier? What have you
spotted in the news?
Piers Townley: Great musical starts of the year. So mine's a
short one but a really important one. And it was the news this week that is
hugely unpredictable and it's a worrying shift in the landscape that ah, Mark
Zuckerberg has followed Musk with profound changes to meta platform. So it's
early days so far but Zuckerberg's announcement this week that the platform is
radically scaling back on his content moderation and leaving it to quote
Community Notes. We know how well that goes or doesn't go sarcastically similar
to the approach that Musk has taken with X. But the implications for comms and
the implications for third sector are potentially huge. And this is unfolding
news. It'll be very, very interesting to see how this reaches out across
everything but particularly with charities and the work that we all do. Third
sector, ah, magazine, third sector website as a quote about, quite interesting
one. It says, quote, the move will open the floodgates of disinformation and
mean it is more difficult for voluntary sector organisations to moderate online
content. Something that our respective social teams are going to have to deal
with and the charity comm teams as a whole. So this is something I think we'll
be delving into very, very soon in future episodes and we'd love to get some
experts on the podcast to discuss the implications, you know, for all UK
charities.
Tim Beynon: It's a really, that's, you know, it is a fascinating
thing to keep an eye on, I think. And I think also I spotted actually yesterday
because this only broke a couple of days ago when as we're talking today, this
news and I saw yesterday that Zoe Amr, who's been a previous guest on the show
digital charity, digital coms specialist, is asking for experts in the field to
talk to her and to collaborate with her on this as well. So she's obviously
trying to get, get to grips with the implications of this as well and what it
means for the sector. So maybe we can give, give Zoe and a ring, see if she
fancy's coming back on the show to ab a chat about that. but it is, it is
fascinating but also I think it's really sad if it kind of is going to negatively
impact charities in the way that, that X has and X has become this, this, this
you place for such, such you know, hurtful, damaging, content, if Facebook
follows suit, I think that's a really sad state of affairs and it, it opens
other door potentially as well for you know, those other smaller social media
platforms to come to the force. Things like Blue Sky. Remember Adela Warley
from Charity Comms who was talking to us about that and a few shows ago, soeah,
maybe it's time for the big boys to make way for some of the small players in
the social world. So a really interesting thing to keep an eye on.
Piers Townley: Think hugely shifting sannd. Yeah.
Tim Beynon: Earlier in the show we met Sally Williams, head of
Philanthropy at the Royal College of Physicians, to find out more about
philanthropy and working with major donors. And in the second part of our
interview we wanted to find out what money aside, success actually looks like
for those who work in this particular field and how charities of all sizes can
compete to win over major donors. Sally, what kind of external factors can
impact the sort of landscape for philanthropy fundraising? Is it things like
the cost of living crisis that happened or changing government that we see we
obviously seen this year as well? Today's kind of external factors affect your
life in terms of making, make it easier or harder. Are there certain things
from outside pressures were outside the impacts?
Sally Williams: I think the cost of living for sure. I mean if
you're talking the charity sector as a whole, I think last year the figures
were, haven't got them to hand. It's something like 13 point something billion
that that UK public gave to charities and that was up from the year before, but
it was less donors were giving back, so it was bigger
00:30:00
Sally Williams: gifts that were being given. Of course, the cost
of living crisis is affecting everyone, is affecting donors. Of course it
affects charities because we all need to switch the lights on and pay people.
And also the charity sector staff as well, because I think the sector's losing
good people because they need higher paid jobs. I think the sector is getting
better at paying people well. But, you know, you go and work for a bank,
you'renn get a higher salary. So I think, yes, cost of living, of course
affects everyone, but in my world, with major donors, they are, they are still
affected, but I would say less so. And actually some major donors and
philanthropists, are, because of the nature of what's going on in the country
and the world, are wanting to give more and give bigger gifts. So there's, you
know, in my world, philanthropy, I think it's less affected by external
factors, but of course it is affected.
Tim Beynon: Sure.
And talking about external factors as well, have you ever had a
situation or how you. How would you approach a sort of ethical dilemma in terms
of a donor, perhaps someone approaching you wanting to give, who, who, for
whatever reason, the ethics of that donation might not align with the ethics of
the organisation you work for. Is that something that's ever sort of crossed
your desk or something you've had to take into consideration? Have you ever
turned down a donation on the back of an ethical issue?
Sally Williams: So, again, I can only speak for the charities I
work for, but of course that isn't, a concern for all charities across the
board. we follow, and I think all charities follow their own due diligence
process. So if you're looking into a prospect and you're thinking about asking
someone, you'll kind of see, have they had any negative press? Are they,
involved with any businesses that might not align with your particular cause
and charity? For example, cancer charities, probably wouldn't ask someone in
the tobacco industry or possibly even the alcohol industry, because they could
be, you know, causes of cancer. so. And I've never had to turn down a gift,
thankfully, or what a horrib position to be in. but I know that if we had a
concern like that, or there was an issue that we were kind of undecided about,
we can take it to our trustees and, follow a whole procedure that's set in
place. So I have no qualms about that. I haven't had to turn down a gift, but
what I have had to do is Stop kind of engaging with someone because they
suddenly did have some negative press and it wouldn't have been good to pursue
that person for a major donation. which is really frustrating.
Tim Beynon: But, yeah, you know, it happens. It happens.
Piers Townley: Unfortunately, Soly, just turning to charities and
the impact that they have, obviously all charities have to demonstrate the
impact that the funds that they raise have for the cause that they're
supporting. Do you find that's a little bit more acute with major donors? Do
you have to pay a bit more attention and delve a bit deeper into exactly where
their money will go, or do you think that's just the same as it is across types
of donations in their charity? And do you have any tips on how you. How you
kind of show that impact?
Sally Williams: I think major donors and philanthropists, you
need to treat them as individuals because you could have one donut that really
doesn't want to hear from you at all all year. and it can be hard to kind of
ascertain that because there's major donor fundraisers, of course, we want to
send them the impact report, we want them to come and see what we do. We want
to do X, Y and Z with them throughout the year. But some don't want that. Some
just want an impact for once a year and that's it. Other donors want to be more
involved. and I think demonstrating the impact is so important, but also really
enjoyable too. It can be very difficult depending on the charity you work for.
but, for example, we bring people in to see the science, bring people into the
laboratories. And, yeah, of course, it takes a bit of organisation and there's
logistics involved and people might not be able to come from Scotland down to
London, whatever, but you can record it or you can show them the lab on a
video. there are other ways to show the impact that don't cost a lot of money.
we at the Brainrem of charity peers, we contacted some families who had, been
affected by a brain tumour and we asked their children would they do some
Christmas cards. And it was just an idea a few years ago and we sent them some
blank cards and these beautifully beautiful Christmas cards came back from
these children who had then handwritten them, you know, age 5 or written in
there. My father passed away from a brain tumour. I'm not going to get teary.
and, you know, thank you so much for supporting the charity. And they went down
an absolute storm with our major donors. I mean, they didn't really cost very
much and it was hugely impactful. So I think showing the impact doesn't have
to. Doesn't have to cost a lot of money and doesn't have to be too involved. It
can be such a little thing. but, if you were investing that kind of money into
a cause or a charity, you kind of want to know where it is spent and you'd want
to know you're investing the right charity and the right CAs. So I think it's
really,
00:35:00
Sally Williams: really important.
Piers Townley: Yeah, really a huge point there, Sally, because I
think with all dos, really, if you're dealing with celebrities or you're
dealing with, you know, a community bake sale, you want to rise above being a
transactional thing. You want them to be with you on the course, to stand
beside you, I guess, and that must be true of major donors.
Sally Williams: Yeah. And I think you can also use assets from
other areas of the charity. You know, if there is, an impact report being done
for the whole charity, of course you can send that and perhaps send it with a
handwritten note in it to say, I think you'll be particularly interested in
page five, you know, so use the assets that you've got as well.
Piers Townley: And that could be harder though, couldn't. I was
just thinking we were able to do that and we are able to do that at the Brain
Trument charity because we're relatively small, our, pool of people. But when
you get to a bigger charity, when you get to the likes of the icr, and your
supporters and your benefactors are hugely spread out, that must be a bit more
tricky then to try and give that personal touch.
Sally Williams: I think coming from the Brain Tuming charity
where, as you say, peers. I think we did it really well. I say we. I'm not
there anymore, but, you know, it was done very well. it was a different. It's
just a different way of doing it at the icr. And actually our fundraising team
is not very big for the size of the organisation. We're pretty lean. You look
at the likes of the bigger charities, but then they have the expenditure to it
to do it as well. So they might not necessarily have to use assets from other
teams, I'd say.
Tim Beynon: As well, just in terms of impact, whether you're big
or big or small, in terms of charity size, it's not all about statistics, data
and showing how much has been achieved, over XY Z time and graphs and all that
kind of stuff. It's, as you say, just as those example of those Christmas
cards. It's about the real World, real life impact, real people, real stories.
That's what we see at the firefighters charity. Makes a big difference. It's
what really people really want to.
Sally Williams: See in hear I think donors again it's about
knowing your donors and listening to them because some like the statistics and
they like to know that X amount in the pound was spent on your charitable
objectives or this many projects happened this year or they like the numbers
but some really like the case stud. So why that Produce an impact report that
has a bit of both or you tailor it to the individual as well.
Tim Beynon: Whilst we're talking about impact, next question is
kind of aligned to that really, but more to do with you and your role in terms
of how you measure success. So obviously we talked earlier in the interview
about the fact that you know this kind of fundraising with major donors is a
long term long term prospecting really in terms of you know, securing that
donation down the road. So cash aside and money aside, how do you actually
measure success? What's important to you at the end of the year to say I've
achieved this?
Sally Williams: Yeah, that is a really tricky question. It's not
tricky question, it's good to answer but it can be tricky for charities because
you know we all have budgets to reach and numbers and money to bring in. But
that's why it's good to have a diverse income stream because major donors does
take a long time and you know we as major gift fundraisers shouldn't always be
measured by we've bought in X amount of pounds. So what I do, where I am now or
what we do is we measure the amount of people we've met face to face. That's my
favourite KPI. How many people have I got out there and met? Because if I'm sat
in the office behind my desk, you know that's a bit rubbish. As much as I like
my colleagues, I'd rather be out there having cups of tea, having cups of
coffee with people or bringing somebody in to see the laboratory. so it's about
a number of people I've met face to face, number of phone calls and then the
next one's ah, particular to the type of CRM that we use. We have Razor S edge
which some people will think is terrible but it's okay. so it's the number of
meaningful interactions which I always struggle with. It's quite a long term
but you know it's how many letters are I sent out to that person, how many
phone calls I encapsulates the whole thing, really. How many times have you
interacted with that individual? I heard somewhere along the line that it can
take seven or more interactions before a first major gift, which is, you know,
quite a. A lot really. so we measure things like that. we measure repeat gifts
as well. I mean, it's great if someone gives you £10,000 as a one off, but
actually you'd rather they did that every year, ideally. So repeat gifts as
well as another metric that we use.
Tim Beynon: Sure.
Can I ask you as well about competition? So we know there's a lot
of cancer charities out there, there's a lot of competition vying for donors,
money at the end of the day. How do you combat that? And how do you combat a
bit of sort of donor fatigue? Because I imagine as well that they must get
messages, phone at them and asks from different people, different charities all
the time. How do you sort of make sure that the ICR rises above that and you
are heard above that noise?
Sally Williams: Yeah, you're right there.
00:40:00
Sally Williams: Especially in the cancer space, there's a lot of
charities and you've got the big ones. See, you came mcm Milan. you've got the
icr, you've got Maggie's and then you've got the individual cancer charities
like the Brain IM charity, Prostate Cancer UK and all of the individual ones.
And then you've also got a lot of family charities as well. So there's a whole
range of, people all vying for that donor space. So I think it's about being
authentic, really building those relationships. And we get asked this question
all the time or we get confused and people think we are CU uk and we have to
demonstrate o we're not actually CU uk. They're very different beasts to us,
very different organisation. so it's about building the relationships and taking
those steps to make sure people understand who we are, what we do. we mentioned
that we do collaborate a lot with people, so CR UK fund us quite a lot. We have
the individual charities, like the braining charity, that will fund projects
within our laboratories and also those family charities as well. They also fund
some of our projects. so it's appreciating that donors do get asked a lot by a
lot of different people and if they go elsewhere, then that's okay. That's, you
know, okay. All we can do is demonstrate what we do, and bring them in and show
them what we do.
Piers Townley: It's a different tack of question on a personal
level. Sally, are you very philanthropic? See I said it right then. and, what
inspires you to give? What do you look for in a course?
Sally Williams: I would love to be a major donor. I'd love to be
in a position to be a major donor.
Piers Townley: Wouldn't we all?
Sally Williams: Yeah. because I genuinely would give my money
away in that kind of capacity if I could. am I philanthropic? Yes. So
philanthropy actually means the love of mankind. It'from Greek mythology or
something. I should know this. I've just studied philanthropal. but it means
love of mankind. So it's not just about giving money. It can be giving your
time, your talent, your testimony. They call it the five T's of philanthropy.
So. So it doesn't have to be just about giving money. I've recently become a
trustee for a very small charity, Veterans with Dogs. they pair, fully trained
assistance dogs with veterans who need it for mental health challenges. I've
just joined my old cadet unit where, when I grew up I was a cadet, to try and
help them with their fundraising and bring some money in, being there. And I do
support a lot of charities that are close to my heart. And I think if everybody
could support, you know, a few charities in a little capacity, as much as I
can, the world would be a better place. I support Dogs Trust, hospital where my
mum went, veterans charities, rnli, the whole range from big to small
charities. but yes, if everybody could do a little bit, then the world would be
a nicer place.
Piers Townley: I think that's a definite yes to the question of
bit in philanthropic, isn't it? I love, I love that idea. The five T's. I think
it's a really important thing you touched on as well, which is a really lovely
takeaway, is that it's not just money or it shouldn't be looked at as just
money. It can be a whole range of things that can support, you know, any
chosen.
Sally Williams: and I think that goes back to the donor fatigue
as well, is the donors don't just want to be asked for money. Ask them for
their advice. Ask them who their networks are. You know, if they trust you and
they like your charity, would they introduce other people to come in and be
donors as well? So it's not just about asking them for money. And don't forget
that a major donor might also be a marathon runner, might also be a CEO of a
company that could get involved and actually might like to do a bake sale. So,
you know, people are people and they want to do lots of different things. Don't
just treat them as, you know, one thing.
Piers Townley: Finally, Sally, we've noticed that you're a
regular responder on our Friday named the charity quiz that we have with
Charity Show. But you've done well so far. Are there any that I've got you
stunt?
Sally Williams: Yes. And Firstly, I must say I love them. They're
brilliant. And the first, first few, I thought I'm good at this mainly went
downhill from there. And I tell you the minute I see it on a Friday morning, I
mean, not that I should be looking on LinkedIn when you know, should be
working, but, you know, you spot it on LinkedIn. I can't concentrate until I've
got it. It really frustrates me and some of the simple ones have really stumped
me and I show my husband and we go round in circles. So I actually wrote down
the ones that I thought were quite difficult. Oxam. I mean, that's ridiculous.
Tim Beynon: Yeah, such a small word. And lots of people said cow.
Cow family. Cow family. Yeah.
Sally Williams: Yes. WWF threw me as well. Battersea with the
fish and chips. Yeaheah. But they're brilliant. I love them. Please don't stop
doing them.
Tim Beynon: We won't. Thank you for joining us. It's been an
absolute pleasure.
Sally Williams: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Piers Townley: In each episode of the charity show, we want to
celebrate our sector superstars, those incredible people working, volunteering
and fundraising across our sector. And
00:45:00
Piers Townley: you can nominate your deserving colleagues,
volunteers or fundraisers, just email us@the charityowpodmail uh.com or get in
touch through the links in the show notes. You can even send us a voice message
so we can play out in the next episode. This week though, Tim, we've got some
rather special superstars to highlight.
Tim Beynon: Absolutely. We're going to take a closer look, at the
real superstars from the King's 2025 New Year's Honorss. Always a fascinating
list of, recipients, and it's always something that we keep a close eye on, as
I'm sure you do at the Brain Tumour Trity. But the firefighter charityy, we do
the same. Also, I want to pass on my congratulations to all those incredible
members of the fire services community who were rightly recognised in the
King's New Year's Honours. And we listed them all on, on the firefighters
charities, website as well. So huge congratulations to all of them. But from
the third sector, from, from the charity world in general. While the Celeebs
might have got most of the headlines, we thought we'd pick out a few very
deserving people from the charity world who were rightly recognised. So we've
got quite a long list and we split it between us. So I'll kick off. First off
is Michaela Beans, an 18 year old. she launched her own charity to grant wishes
to children with cancer after she was diagnosed with brain cancer when she was
only four years old. She is still undergoing treatment. Team Michela has raised
£350,000. That's £350,000 since 24 and it's granted 220 wishes for seriously
ill children. Michaela from Wantage in Oxfordshire was awarded a British Empire
Medal be and was one of the youngest people honoured this year. So huge
congratulations to Michikaela and very, very well deserved. On the other end of
the age spectrum, the oldest recipient was World War II mosquito pilot Colin Bell.
103 years old, he was awarded a B.M. for his charity fundraising and public spe
about Bomber Command.
Piers Townley: Sticking with beem m military veteran and former
nurse John Hardy, 68, he walked 1,000 miles the COVID lockdowns to deliver
prescriptions despite having lost his eyesight in 2014, Mr. Hardy said half of
his be his British Empire medal should be awarded to his guide dog Sydney who
guided him around as he made deliver this around his hometown of Bridgewater in
Somerset. The Royal Army Medical Corps veteran who worked as a nurse for 40
years walked up to five miles a day with Sydney during the lockdown. It also
works with several charities including Blind Veterans uk, the Veterans
Breakfast Club and Dementia Action Alliance. Married couple Gail and Jason
O'Sheee, both 58 were awarded MBE for their work with the charity Wipe Away
those Tears which support terminally and seriously ill children in Essex. In 18
years the couple have raised more than 1.5 million and helped more than 1,000
children including donating specialist equipment to families to help encour
with life changing illness and disability.
Tim Beynon: Bereaved mother Wendy Tarpley Morris, I hope
I'pronounce that right. Who created a charity to provide wigs for children
undergoing cancer treatment was also awarded an MBE. She co founded the Little
Princess Trust after her daughter Hannah Tarply died from cancer in 2005 aged
just five. There was also an MBE for music teacher Nathaniel Dy, 39, who has
raised more than £37,000 from McMilller since he was diagnosed with terminal
cancer in 2023. He has carried out challenges including running the London
Marathon while playing the trombone and walking from Land's end to John O
Groats.
Piers Townley: Three parents whose daughters were murdered by
their ex partners were honoured for their campaign to tackle violence against
women. Carol Gould and Julie Devi co founded Killed Women after the murders of
their daughters Ellie Gould and Poppy Devi Waterhouse. They were both awarded
obe.
Tim Beynon: And there were also honorss for many of those leading
charities across the uk, including the founder of Roald Dahl's Marvelloous
Children's charity and the Royaald Dahl Museum and Story Centre. Felicity and
Dahl she was awarded a Dame Hood for services to philanthropy, to literature
and to young people. Refuge Chair Hetty Barkworth Nanton has received a CBE for
her services to people affected by domestic abuse and domestic homicide. And
Andrew Scattergood, Chief Executive of the Royal Parks charity has been awarded
a CBE for services to heritage and charity.
Piers Townley: Rene Olillieri, Chair of the National Trust has
been awarded a CBE and also someone very close to the brain tumour charity's
heart. A huge congratulations to consultant neurosurgeon Professor Kemore's
Ashcan for much deserved recognition. Dr. Michell Afif, our CEO of the Brain
tumour charity said he is a tireless advocate for excellence and compassion in
patient care, fearless innovator in care delivery and a committed supporter to
the brain tumour charity and all those dealing with a brain tumour diagnosis.
Ash represents the very best of the NHS who usually work without public
recognition or the expectation at what come because they are motivated by the
patients they serve. Michelle carries on to say she's proud to call him a
friend and a colleague and elsewhere on the Alzheimer's Society. Chief
Executive Kailey she was awarded an
00:50:00
Piers Townley: OBE for service to charity.
Tim Beynon: RN Alli Chair Janet Legrand has been awarded an OBE
for services to young people from her time as chair of the Children's Society.
And David Farnsworth, managing director of CityIT Bridge foundation and owner
of Tower Bridge, has been awarded an OBE for services to the voluntary sector
in London. Tony Collins, meanwhile deputy Chair of Hospice uk has also been
awarded an OBE for services to healthcare and community.
Piers Townley: The British Heart Foundation's new Chief
Scientific and Medical Officer, Brian Williams, has been awarded an OBE for
services to medicine. The award is in recognition of the leading role he has
played as a scientific and clinical leader in the uk. Elsewhere Diane Ruddock,
External Affairs Manager for the National Trust in Northern Ireland, has been
awarded an OBE for services to the environment, heritage and the community. And
Alice Hendry, founder and Chief Executive of Ripple Suicide Prevention, has
been awarded an MBE for services to online safety.
Tim Beynon: Stammer Vice Chair Deborah Johnston has received an
MBE for her work around stammering in higher education. And Josephine Sagow and
Vanessa Crocker, co founders of North London based charity Spread a Smile, have
both been awarded an MBE for services to seriously and terminally ill children
and their families. And that I think completes our list. Hopefully we haven't
left anybody off, but I think you agree with what an amazing bunch of
superstars this week. All very well deserved.
Piers Townley: Yeah, some incredible charities there, some
incredible, figureheads, and some incredible inspiration for the UK charity
sector.
Tim Beynon: So that's a wrap for episode 17. Huge thanks to Sally
for shining a spotlight on the challenging world of major donor philanthropy.
And there's plenty more to come as we re head into 2025 yearsers.
Piers Townley: There certainly is. In a fortnight's time, we're
going to be joined by two young ambassadors to find out what drives them and
what advice they offer other charities in regard to working with Gen Z's
supporters.
Tim Beynon: I think you and I could do learning a bit about Gen Z
ourselves peers, but there we go. We'll find out more in a couple of weeks
time. Don't forget, you can be a part of the show too, whatever your role in
the third sector. Just send us your voice messages or get in touch through re
any of the links in the show notes to share your stories and tell us what you'd
like us to cover.
Piers Townley: And of course we also want to know your superstar
fundraisers, volunteers or colleagues, are too. So head to the Show Notes and
share their brilliance with the rest of us.
Tim Beynon: And in the meantime, please follow or subscribe to us
on your usual podcast platform and lead us a review, both of which will help
others to find the show.
Piers Townley: So that's it for this episode of thanks for
listening, Take care and we'll see you soon.
00:52:34
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