Episode 4: Full transcript

 

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Coming up in Episode 4

Tim Beynon: Hello and welcome to the Charity show, the podcast for Charity Insiders by Charity Insiders. Please give us a follow on your usual podcast platform. And here's what's coming up in episode four.

Piers Townley: We're also seeing it in the press and the print, which is quite, an eye opener, for our team. What is the AI doing to the story that we're putting there? We had one example where it had obviously picked up the word chemo and radiotherapy, but then it changed the headline and called one of the Brain tumours that was being featured cancerous when it wasn't. So that's quite a heavy implication, not only for the person that it's talking about, but the implications of the whole amount of work we do.

Zoe Amar: I'd say one of the most important, job roles to get on side with AI is your CEO. you know, your CEO needs to, be upskilling as well. They need to be modelling the right behaviour around trying these tools, learning these tools, giving staff the guidance and the support they need to use these tools.

Tim Beynon: Basically, there's a mystery donor somewhere in the west country who's sending basically, envelopes full of cash to charities. So, there's been three charities in the west country that have benefited recently. Each of them have received about 1000 pounds in used 20 pound notes. What. What are you gonna put your money on? What are you gonna bid on, Piers?

Piers Townley: I think I've got one.

Tim Beynon: Your eyes on a pair of shoes?

Piers Townley: Yeah. Maybe a handbag to go with Saturday night outfit? Yeah.

Tim Beynon: Nice. Nice.

Welcome

Hello and welcome to episode four of the Charity show with me, Tim Boynan, head of marketing engagement at the firefighters.

Piers Townley: Charity, and me, Piers Townley, PR manager at the Brain Tumour Charity.

Tim Beynon: Can't quite believe we're on episode four already, Piers, and the weeks seem to be flying by. How are you doing? How are you?

Piers Townley: Yes, very well. Yeah, the weeks are zooming by. You all right? We're just, a busy couple of weeks, but towards the. The end of those. We've just finished our nominations for the third sector awards this year. We decided to enter it a host of amazing charities. They're kind of BafTas of the sector, I guess. And we've put forward Amy Nuttall as one of our celebrity supporters. Amy tragically lost her lovely mom, Elaine to a Brain Tumour last October and then started to support us. We reached out to her. She recorded a charity single that we did a lot of media workouts, a lot of supporter workout during our Brain Tumour awareness month in March and she continues to be part of a lot of the things that we're doing, including our policy campaign, which was the second nomination we put through to the Charity, the third sector Charity awards. That was our, call in March for our national Brain Tumour strategy. So, celebrity supporter and our policy campaign. But I just wanted a quick shout out to everyone who's entering the awards, all those amazing charities and those amazing categories. The best of luck to everyone. I think we find out on the 4 July if the nominations have made it to the next stage and then the awards take place in September. So a massive luck to everyone entering.

Tim Beynon: Fantastic, amazing set of awards and great to be nominated. Well, hopefully you guys get shortlisted. So fingers crossed all around and just coming up to what you're saying, there, charity singles, there's not enough of them. We definitely need to bring back the charity single. Definitely need to do more of those. Bit more live aid style Charity singling.

Piers Townley: Yeah, the big one from our youth, which is, telling us our age, isn't it?

Tim Beynon: I guess, yeah, indeed, indeed. Yeah. But more of that, please. so, yes, likewise, there's been another busy time at the chat. It's ever not a busy time at the firefighters chatty and likewise for you, but at the moment we're kind of working on our, annual reports, which is that time of year again, when you've got to financial years come to an end. You've got to get together all your statutory requirements for companies, house and the like in terms of trustees report, financial statements and then nice glossy front end to that. Trying to find a way to do it that's just a little bit, out of the ordinary, a little bit different, a little bit inspirational, a bit innovative. So trying to find a way we can do that. Perhaps a bit digital, perhaps a bit print. So we'll have to wait and see. But really intrigues and interested to hear from other people, actually other charities, in terms of your annual reports and your impact reports and annual reviews, those kind of things, what do you do that makes them stand out and how do you use them? Do you use them digitally? Do you still use them for print? Do you use them for things like trust applications? How do you use and, get the most out of your annual reviews? Perhaps that's an episode for another time. So that's what we're focusing on. And then elsewhere, I don't know, it's a bit of dodging the terrible weather we've been having recently been really, really poor. So nice, to see, look out the window. Today. Nice to see a bit of sunshine for a change. It's been lovely and enjoying the. Enjoying the football on the telly. But I know you're not a football man, Piers, but have you been dragged into it with the kids?

Piers Townley: I've been definitely dragged into it by my son, yes. I've got a hand on heart. Offside rule. Don't know. It's a game of two halves. That's about as much as it goes. Poorly to say. But yes, we will be watching it. We're heading straight into the euros. We're in the euros now.

Tim Beynon: There we go. It's a game of cliches. That's all it is really. Basically. That's enough of the football chat, I think, Piers, what have we got coming up in this episode?

Who's on the show this week?

Piers Townley: We're looking forward to this episode, Tim. We're going to be speaking with AI and third sector guru Zoe Amma. about the opportunities that artificial intelligence systems and, and processes are, bringing into the Charity sector, the impact it will have on fundraising, the

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Piers Townley: threat to charity content and comms where we work in, and the need to get slts and CEO's on board as the sector sprints to get up to speed with the development and the impacts of AI on the work that we all do on a day to day basis.

Tim Beynon: Talking of which, in terms of working with AI on a day to day basis, are you, is it part and parcel of your working day?

Piers Townley: We do, we do see it a lot, actually. Well, we see it in the research, the number crunching that happens in the healthcare systems and the cancers, cancer charities. And we also see it sometimes within our engagement and our emails and our marketing. We use it in content slightly. We've seen distilling very complex scientific papers into understandable layman's kind of jargon. But we're also seeing it in the press and the print, which is quite, an eye opener, for our team. We've had our case studies, been using national newspapers, I won't name one because I'm sure they're all doing it. But scrolling to the bottom of that online article, you see the caveat. This article has been fed through an AI system. And that's quite a stark and quite a resting thing to see when you're thinking, well, what is the AI doing to the case study? What is the AI doing to the story that we're putting there? We had one example where it had obviously picked up the word chemo and radiotherapy, standard treatments for the disease area that we're in but then it changed the headline and called one of the Brain tumours that was being featured cancerous when it wasn't. So that's quite a heavy implication, not only for the person that it's talking about, but the implications of the whole amount of work we do. So, very interesting, slightly scary, also quite intriguing way to see how this, this whole AI is going to revolutionise the way we work.

Tim Beynon: It definitely will. I think you're right about it being scary. I mean, a lot of the, stories you see in the press are quite scare mongering. They kind of sort of tell, you know, jobs are going to be replaced and AI is going to change the world and all this kind of stuff. But example you've given there is exactly the fact that it's not perfect and you still need a human who's able to tell that it's not. That in that example that it wasn't cancelled out, but that was, that was incorrect. AI got that wrong. So it's reassuring to know that there still needs a real person at some point along the line to pick these kind of things up. So that's a great example.

Piers Townley: Yeah, you need it. You need it. You need the old equivalent, the proofreader, the old sub editors, those roles and you are still going to be there. The content moderator, whatever you want to call it these days. That set of human eyes is still going to be paramount at this stage anyway.

Tim Beynon: Yeah, definitely. Who knows what the future has in store, though? You never know. But, yeah, I'm pretty similar. I mean, we at the Charity use, it's just starting to use AI really to help with things like testing different versions of content, redrafting content to give it a different tone or a different spin, that kind of thing. so it's kind of, you kind of using it as a sounding board for ideas sometimes as well, and helping us generate different ideas and different approaches to different things. I think when you've been at a Charity a long time, you're very, very used to, an environment and a community. It's quite good, actually, to have to sort of use it as a way in which to generate fresh ideas because it's difficult sometimes to always keep coming up with those ideas. So I can see the use of it in that sense. And also we use it to help to segment some of our data, using Salesforce to do that. And interesting that Salesforce is a giant in the CRM world and huge organisations use it. it's a massive organisation, but it is itself now putting AI at the heart of all that it does. So really you won't be able to escape it. It's going to be part and parcel of our lives going forward. But I will say one thing I am pretty sceptical of, certainly at the moment anyway, and it probably get better, is AI images. Now, they basically look dodgy. You can tell an AI image a mile off, you've got extra limbs, you know, too many fingers, all that kind of stuff.

Piers Townley: Six fingered people come upon them, don't they? Quite a lot, yeah.

Tim Beynon: And we use a, we use an AI tool to help with the podcast. And, it's good, it tweaks the audio for us, enhances the audio. But one of the things it also does is, generates, cover arts, for us, or suggests cover art for us. And this is quite amusing in that we used it for one of our last episodes. And, in that episode, I think you were talking about the fact that you went kayaking down the Basingstoke canal and I was talking about the firefighters Charity, one end or another. Basically, the system, having listened to the audio, came back with a cover art picture of a firefighter in a kayak on a, on a river somewhere. just, it was just completely random. I mean, the boat paddling had like four paddles as well. It was very strange.

Piers Townley: I didn't look too closely. I really like that piece. I think we should do that more often. But you're right, it could throw up some very strange looking visuals.

News

Tim Beynon: For some third sector news. What's made it into your notebook this week, piers?

Piers Townley: What grabbed my attention was a piece about a generational icon, if you like. I mean, I don't think you do too many superlatives for but Vivian Westwood, the iconic design and provocateur and activist and music moguled. I mean, she was huge, hugely instrumental in shaping a generation of culture, a generation of art. She's got a personal collection that's been

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Piers Townley: auctioned off. obviously, sadly, she died a couple of years back now, but her personal collection has been auctioned off as Christie's, with the proceeds going to Charity. So there's lots of dresses and suits and shoes and iconic jewellery, really striking pieces that are going to go into the hammer this month. I think there's live sale on the 25 June, and there's an ongoing, at the moment, online auction between the 14th and the 28th of the month. And proceeds and funds raised are going to go to some other causes that were very close to Vivian's heart. Ah, such as the Vivian Foundation, Medicine Sanfontiere, Amnesty, international and an organisation called the Big Picture, which is a project that works alongside Greenpeace. So huge icon selling iconic stuff for massive, massive charities. So really interesting.

Tim Beynon: What, what are you going to put your, your money on? What are you going to bid on, piers? I think I've got your eyes on a pair of shoes.

Piers Townley: Yeah. Maybe a handbag to go with a Saturday night outfit. Yeah.

Tim Beynon: Nice, nice. That's nice. Excellent. That's a lovely, lovely story. I like that. I've got an interesting one as well that I spotted. And first off, before I go into it, what's the most exciting piece of post you've ever received?

Piers Townley: Oh, I think I'm still waiting for it. I want that big cheque to land in there from a lottery or something. Not yet.

Tim Beynon: Yeah, yeah, the post isn't exciting anymore. It's just bills. It's just bills and rubbish that comes through the door. So no, no exciting post for me. But there has been some very exciting posts for some charities in the west country, over the last month or two. And basically there's a mystery donor somewhere in the west country who's sending basically envelopes full of cash to charities. So there's been three charities in the west country that have benefited recently. Each of them have received about 1000 pounds in used 20 pound notes. So the last one was Bristol autism support and they received 1020 pounds in the post. The RNLI, in Portishead received 1100 pounds in cash. and back in May, Marie Curie and Bristol, discovered wads of cash amounting to 1000 pounds in their letterbox. So this is amazing. Basically, these charities are receiving in envelopes that don't have any return address on them. No information, just an envelope full of used pound 20 notes amounting to about pound 1000. How exciting must that be for the people opening the post? Isn't that great? I love that story.

Piers Townley: It's really intriguing as well, isn't it? Because you just want to do a bit of investigation, don't you? You don't want to, want to unmask this amazing anonymous donator, whoever they may be.

Tim Beynon: Yeah, absolutely. I'm looking forward to it. I might, have to go and well, if I was in the west country now, I'd be on tenterhooks waiting to see what arrived in the post.

AI and the third sector

Few technologies have in such a short period of time caused as much excitement and trepidation as AI infiltrating almost every area of our lives built into our phones, apps, websites and search engines. AI is writing for us, designing for us, generating ideas, creating images, making music and video, enhancing the audio of this podcast, and potentially changing the way charities work forever. Whether taking your tentative first steps with chat GPT, or manipulating complex data to target fundraising campaigns to specific audiences, over the next few years, we will all undoubtedly be using AI as part of our day to day work. So how do we get past the fear and learn to love AI? Third sector digital champion Zoe Ammer advises charities and leaders on emerging technologies and strategy. And as she told Piers and I when we spoke to her recently, AI has a bright future in the third sector, as long as it's used correctly and responsibly. Zoe, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us today. It's fantastic to see you. Fantastic to get our teeth into this really important subject of AI. It's one we've been really keen to do so for a little while now. For many of us, our knowledge of AI, well, probably personally and peers know about you, but probably it doesn't go much further than beyond the basic understanding of chat GBT and watching the news and hearing some of those scare mongering stories that out there, about AI.

AI - what are we talking about here?

So perhaps a good place for us to start this interview is if you might just help us to understand what we're actually talking about when we talk about the potential of AI, and the third sector.

Zoe Amar: Yeah, of course. So it's a great point you've made there, because you're so right that often when people talk about AI, they're thinking very much of generative AI and tools such as chat GPT. But of course, there's a whole world beyond that that can really help charities. I would describe AI just as a summary. It's where computer systems learn, and they can problems of kind of mimicking how a human would do it, and in terms of the day to day ways in which charities can use it. I mean, there's everything from, using AI to help you draught content, to help you be more productive, such as meeting notes, but then some of the more sophisticated stuff around idea generation and, of course things like predictive analytics in charity fundraising, and I'm sure

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Zoe Amar: come on to those examples later. So, overall, I'd say these tools, the potential there is partly about being more productive, but it's also about how you can ultimately increase your impact by leveraging the power of these technologies. But that will only happen if you use it. Right. Fantastic.

Tim Beynon: It's good to hear that it's not all terrifyingly scary, as the media sometimes makes it out to be.

Examples of where it's being used well

But can you perhaps give us some real world examples of where in the third sector, AI is currently being used and where you've seen at making a positive difference?

Zoe Amar: Yeah, absolutely. So there's some really interesting examples out there, and I'm going to share one, which I saw, in the UK context, but then also a really interesting one I saw from a canadian non profit just about, a week ago. So there's a really great example from a small Charity in Scotland called Odd Gowan Hospice. And what they're doing is looking at how they can use AI platforms to essentially curate and, bring together the stories of patients, towards the end of their lives, because what they have heard from patients, and also the loved ones of these patients as well, is that, sometimes those memories get lost, when someone dies, very sadly. So what they're exploring, and as I understand it, they're at that exploratory stage at the moment. And this is something m. That I covered as part of one of my third sector columns, a few months ago, is they're looking at how they can use these tools in order to do that, to create, these stories based on what the patient has said, and then to pass those memories down the generations. and they're potentially also looking at where AI can be used to clone patients and voices as well, in order to tell those stories. And potentially those stories could be used for fundraising purposes as well. So this is, I think, very exciting because it's really ambitious. you can see the potential with fundraising as well, if the right permissions are in place. However, as with any other area of AI, you really need to think through the ethical framework around that. So I'm really excited to see what they're doing. I think there's lots of potential to help them achieve their mission, and lots of things to think through as well, in order to make sure it meets, their values. But, yeah, watching that one with a great deal of interest and an example from the canadian nonprofit. Now, this is a really innovative campaign, and I'd love to see more uk charities considering this kind of thing. So there's a nonprofit, in Toronto called furniture bank. And what they do is they help families, particularly families who've recently, emigrated to Canada, and some of whom may be refugees, potentially, where they're really living in furniture poverty. So they've been given social housing by the government, but they don't have any furniture to furnish place and that's really hard because a lot of these people who are coming across have families and young families. So what furniture bank did, which I think is really interesting, is they used, AI, in particular image generation tools, tools like Dali and Midjourney and that kind of thing, to co design some creative for a campaign, which was about the reality of living in that kind of situation, rather than sending a photographer into these homes and all the sorts of consequences for, privacy, for those, families to basically co create that imagery using generative AI, with families who were affected by it. And they used the creative in a really interesting way, because effectively what they were doing was they were saying, well, this is the part of this is something which is an image generated by AI, but it's reality for a lot of families living in Canada. So I think that's a really interesting way in which you can put AI in the front and centre of your campaign and where the medium is the message, which I think is a very powerful thing. But then added to that, they have an AI based fundraising ask, which is really, really interesting because it's about, would you fund more innovation from a charity like ours? And they've been really open and transparent, on the fundraising landing page there, where they've talked about why they're using AI, the point they're trying to make by using AI, and also how they've used the AI, ethically and transparently as well. So it's the first time I've seen a charity fundraising in that way, where AI is a central element of the creative. But it's also part of the. The case for support as well, which is where I think it gets really quite radical and innovative and really exciting.

Piers Townley: That's absolutely fascinating, Zoe, especially that kind of transparency, which I think is key to the AI. It's what is on everyone's mind at the moment, isn't it? I mean, the scottish hospice Charity that you mentioned and the legacies and people's stories is very pertinent to what we do at the Brain Tumour Charity. The case studies and people support, and the legacy of their loved

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Piers Townley: ones and the legacy of people that are going through what we're going through is very, very central to how they interact and how they support our charity. So where do you think charities should be focusing their energy going forward?

Zoe Amar: M. Yeah, so I think this is a great question, because for me, it's going to be about what you have learned from what you've done so far. and every Charity is at a different stage with that. I mean, I've spoken to two quite well known charities already today who are at quite different stages, with AI. So where I have commonly seen Charity start to, adopt AI over the last year, it's for some of those use cases that we talked about in terms of the creating the content meeting notes, but also maybe starting to think about how might we use these tools in order to analyse our data and better understand, our beneficiaries and target campaigns. So m, it really depends on what you have managed to do so far and what you feel confident about doing, what your staff are skilled up to do, what you've got the capacity and headspace to do, and also what on earth is going on with your wider digital transformation. So there are charities I speak to where they've got a lot of interest in how they can use AI tools to understand their data and get better insight from, make better decisions from it, such as how they better target campaigns. But if your data is in a mess, if the data quality isn't there, if the data is sitting on six different databases, if your data flows are sort of all over the place, that's going to be a real challenge and that's going to limit your AI maturity and the return on investment you get from, from using these tools. So where I think this stuff is a real opportunity is where it will prompt you to review and rethink your digital transformation journey so far. And if any of those, those foundations, those building blocks are in place, not, or yet, and if you don't have them yet, to plan for how you make sure you get them, to be put in place, that's.

Will AI lead to job cuts?

Piers Townley: Really, really interesting because obviously as a health Charity, we see a lot of AI being used, very obviously in the research where it's crunching health data and patients data and cancer treatments and all of that sort of stuff. But then more on a day to day charity level, because obviously AI, the biggest worry for people, is it going to affect the creative side of things? Is it going to affect the comm side of charities? And does that inevitably lead to cost cutting? Does that inevitably lead to losing jobs? Do you think that's the case or is this yet to be sort of seen in the real world?

Zoe Amar: Well, I think this is all about how we end up approaching this in organisations and I do hope we'll see more cross sector collaboration on it. So if you talk to someone like Rodri Davis, who I think is very very insightful on this, I know that one of the things that he's concerned about, and I obviously share these concerns as well, is that if charities are very reactive on this, and if they stick their heads in the sand and they think, well, just, you know, let it sort of develop very organically, and then you may get to a point where you always fall off a cliff if your fixed costs are very high and you're thinking, well, actually, there's a sort of AI solution, I could. And that means that I only need two people in my fundraising team as opposed to five. And you want to avoid being in that situation, right. Because the organisational knowledge, the donor, knowledge that, people in those jobs will have, there's a way for those people to be retrained, perhaps their roles look slightly different, for them to be skilled up in these tools so they can continue to make a huge amount of difference. So I'm not one of these people who believes that there's going to be a complete bonfire of jobs, but I think that you have to be ready for a situation where your organisational structure and roles and responsibilities and delivery models and indeed your culture is probably going to look very different. So what I've been saying to charities and leaders as well is that as with any other kind of digital transformation, tech adoption, innovation, the way that AI comes into your organisation and how you choose to use it or not, the decisions that you make, this is a test of your culture and this is a test of your leadership, and this is a test of how innovative you are prepared to be. So you have to look at it through that frame.

Piers Townley: I guess you're right, because a lot of charities, a lot of organisations, but particularly charities, have been going under a digital transformation for many years. Whether they kind of address it or embrace it or not, that's just naturally happening. I mean, myself and Tim, we work in comms, so pr content, social media, it's all part of our, bread and butter, and that's all wrapped up in how we then use AI, not against us, but as part of our day to day, as part of our charities, wider comms and our wider strategy when it comes to that.

Zoe Amar: Yeah, and I think that's actually

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Zoe Amar: a really positive thing. Right? I mean, I'm seeing some great innovation happening in charities where it's almost like the days of social media back in the early nineties and the way that started to come into organisations and actually was a lot of innovation and creativity being driven by comms and fundraising teams, because that was the entry point where these tools started to be adopted. I think the challenge with AI, because it's coming into some organisations in a bit more of a stealthy way, not because people are, not trying to do the right thing and hide it, just because I'm not sure what I'm allowed to do with it, what the parameters are. So should I be telling people about it? Those really critical learnings that are happening at this point of adoption could be lost if comms and fundraising teams aren't empowered and they're not recognised for the efforts they've made in innovating. So I do think that is something we all need to consider, and offer that support to those teams.

Tim Beynon: It's funny from a, from a comms perspective because I can't help but feel, obviously piers and I have been around for a little while, it kind of, you know, if you do use, if you do use some of these tools, it kind of feels a bit like you're cheating. It kind of feels like, you know, you know, I'm asking, I'm asking, you know, a faceless entity to do my job for me. So that kind of sits, sits comfortably a little bit with me, but at the same time, I can absolutely see the benefits of what it can do. And if things like, you know, things like using AI to come up with split test emails and things like that, and using it to support marketing, I can totally see the benefits of that. But at the back of our mind a little bit, it does feel a lot like I'm chasing. I don't know. What do you think?

Zoe Amar: Yeah, I think it's a really interesting one because I think what you've framed now, which is really great, it's about, the comfort levels and the confidence that people have working with these tools. The way I see these tools is it's a really conversational way of working with technology rather than a transactional way. Back in the day when we all started to work with, Microsoft products and word, I'm old enough to remember that it's very much about, here's a tool and I want the tool to do a very specific thing. Whereas if I'm sitting there with claws open on a tab and I'm trying to draught a report, obviously I'm careful about what data I put into these tools, but it's a thing of what do you think of this? And what do you think of this word again? Is there a different way to say this or to approach this issue? So it's always like the way in which you would talk to a colleague so I don't think it's cheating because it's not like you have given everything over to a tool and you, you've gone off to the pub. It's a case of, well, how can I stress test these ideas? How can I bounce my ideas off something else, in order to make them better? So that's the way I look at it.

Tim Beynon: I can certainly see the benefit of that. and that's really important when you're looking at communicating with multiple, different audiences in multiple different ways, and you're looking at how you can talk to those audiences differently. And AI can definitely help to, just to spark ideas in that way and try and give you a different way of thinking. So, I can totally see the benefit of that.

AI and fundraising

Let me ask you in, a similar vein, really. Can you perhaps just give us a bit of an overview of how AI, can help on the fundraising side of things? Obviously, piers and I are comms side, but from a fundraising side, where are the benefits?

Zoe Amar: Yeah, so where I'm seeing a lot of fundraisers using, these tools, I mean, obviously there's the kind of day to day admin behind the scenes and there's the developing the content, as you say, which I think is really important. There's clearly the development of creative, so that obviously speaks to that case, study that I shared from furniture bank earlier. And I know there's other charities who've used it in their creative as well. and then definitely there are charities I speak to who are using AI to write funding bids. What I'd say about all of that is you want to make sure you're finding a process and a tool that really works for you. Because if you've got the wrong kind of prompts, or if you're not quite sure what you're doing, then you can end up, these tools end up being a massive time sink, put it that way, if you're not quite there with what you're trying to sort of, achieve from it. And then the other thing which I'm seeing more charities doing, and we will have some data on this when the Charity digital skills report comes out on the 11 July, is idea generation. So, asking these tools about, well, give me some innovative ideas for, give me five amazing ideas to reach young people through an innovative Christmas campaign, for example. I think really using it as part of your brainstorming, maybe bringing it into team meetings in order to do that, that's where you can access a whole load of different creative ideas and potential, obviously, things which need to be reviewed, and to be really carefully thought through. but definitely, definitely. I think it's something

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Zoe Amar: which could add to the fundraising sector's creative muscle if you approach it right and you have the time and the capacity for the editing and the reviewing of ideas.

Tim Beynon: Yeah, absolutely.

Take up of AI

Let me ask as well, about the take up of AI. I read a really interesting report, recently, and it actually is a survey of 12,000 people that actually found that out of those 12,000 people, only about 2% have ever used an AI product like chat GPT. And so actually, despite the fact that you can't move in the media for seeing something about AI in the press, pretty much every day, take ups, actually, according to this report, quite slow. Is that the same in the third sector, or is the third sector sort of leading from the front at all?

Zoe Amar: Yeah, I mean, it's hard to say. So we will have some data about take up of AI, in the Charity Digital skills report, which comes out in July. And so please do keep an eye out for that. I'm slightly reluctant to compare a kind of big consumer survey, with a sector specific survey, because I think the adoption is going to look different because there's the kind of professional context in the Charity compared to people using it day to day and their personal, perhaps as much as their working lives. But yeah, I mean, certainly the charities that we speak to, there's a lot of people who are just testing things out with AI or beginning to use it more. so I think that there will be some really interesting trends. We'll certainly have some numbers on that over the summer, which I'm excited to, share with everyone.

Concerns around data privacy and confidentiality

Piers Townley: Just, one point I wanted to talk about, Zoe, is that I think there's a general sense that some people, quite a lot of people feel that the technology is moving a lot faster than they can keep up with, which is where that kind of nervousness, that kind of this is the end of days kind of thing, when people talk about AI. So I just wonder how charities address the concerns of things like confidentiality and data privacy, and actually trust in an organisation. So if we say we are now using AI for a, B and C, how do we maintain that trust with our supporters, our beneficiaries, and those that we're reaching out to?

Zoe Amar: So there's two things there, aren't there? So there's the thing about, the data privacy, but also the transparency as well. so, I mean, the first thing is you do need to give your staff really clear parameters on what they can and can't do with these tools, what data they should be putting into them, what data they shouldn't be putting into them, and to make sure that's really clearly communicated. And also, I think that managers are across all of that guidance as well, because they're the ones who will notice where things might have gone awry, day to day with teams on that front. What I would also suggest charities look at is the T's and C's of the different tools, and the T's and C's are the different levels of tools. So as an example of that, we recently started testing Google Gemini in my organisation. I'm always very careful about what we put into these tools, but I did notice with Gemini that actually the data that you put into it just goes back into training. And so actually I'm pleased we were cautious about what we put in there. But I think if you have the higher level of it, so if you have Google Gemini enterprise, it's not shared more widely, which is a good thing. And some of these companies, they're perhaps not as transparent as they could be about what they do with your data. So I'd encourage people to really test that, and cheque that carefully.

How transparent do charities need to be about AI?

The other side of it, which I think is a great ethical question, is how transparent should I be with my audience about it? And, this is where I think the furniture bank campaign is so interesting, because actually the transparency around we're using AI and m why we're using AI and how we're using AI is actually the fundamental central message of the campaign itself, which I think is a whole other level of transparency. But in terms of how you might tackle the transparency issue day to day with use of AI with your donors and supporters, I think that's quite an individual decision for organisations. You do need a position on it, you know, and it might be that it's got to be proportional. So you may not need to say to every single supporter every time you use it in every email, but if it's a key part of campaigns, particularly if it's a part of creative, then, I do think it's good practise to say that we use this and this is why we used it and perhaps use it to start a bit of conversation with your supporters. And actually, sorry, the final thing on that transparency piece is I would definitely recommending recommend talk to your supporters about it. So even if you just spoke to five or ten of them and you said, look, we're thinking of using AI. What is your view on this? What's your take on charities adopting AI then? Actually that is time well spent because they will also need a bit of education about why you're using these tools and how you're using these tools. And actually that should build that trust piece that you mentioned earlier.

Piers Townley: Well, that touches into really the heart of any third

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Piers Townley: sector, any Charity, isn't it, that the supporters, the beneficiaries are the first point, they're the focal point. So if we're going to embrace this technology and embrace this transformation, they also need to be able along for the journey, in fact, possibly leading the journey as a Charity cause as well.

Are there any specific AI tools that charities should consider using?

So are there any specific tools or any specific programmes out there that you have come across and would recommend for charities to look at or to consider?

Zoe Amar: Yeah, so there's a couple of things. I think that, one of the LLMs, Claude, doesn't get nearly enough air time as it could do. I mean, I read the study that you mentioned with the 12,000 responders. It's interesting because chat GPT has clearly got that massive brand recognition that the other tools don't have to the same degree. And actually, I think Claude is really good at drafting copy. It's really good for working within that conversational idea generation way. So I think that's quite useful. And I'm also hearing really good things about, Dotoro, which I know that a number of charities have used on fundraising campaigns around things like predictive analytics and better identify and better targeting, their campaigns, ending up saving money, and also actually generating more money as, as well. So that is also something which may be worth, looking at. I know that it can be a bit expensive is what I've heard. but definitely, I think exploring that range of tools that is out there to help charities and thinking about, well, what is my AI fundraising tech stack? because I think that the kind of tech stack that you might have now in AI may well shift in six months time as more tools come on stream. So having real clarity and transparency internally around what tools you using, why you're using it, and then developing the principles so that you can decide what to use and what not to use in the future as new products come to market will be really important.

What role should senior leaders take with AI?

Tim Beynon: And so whose job should AI be? are we seeing across the sector that there's a whole load of recruitment for AI managers going on now? Or is it something that should just be built into everyone's roles? Or are there specifically specific new roles that are being created.

Zoe Amar: Yeah. So I'm not seeing any new roles being created. I am hearing more charities starting to perhaps not build it into job descriptions yet, but to look at who could own it as part of their existing roles. So that might be people from digital teams, data teams, tech teams, but actually I'd say one of the most important, job roles to get onside with AI is your CEO. Ah, your CEO needs to, be up skilling as well. They need to be modelling the right behaviour and trying these tools, learning these tools, giving staff the guidance and the support they need to use these tools. And I think it's really important that they have an idea of what the art of the possible is with these tools as well, and how AI can help their charities achieve its vision and its mission. Because one of my concerns at the moment is the conversation I'm having with AI, with people m like heads of digital and fundraisers and people at, management level. There's no energy and excitement and innovation and people doing interesting, creative stuff, obviously on not very much money. And I think that's something that's to be encouraged and empowered with the right parameters. But when I go in and I talk to leaders and CEO's and trustees, that energy is very different. People are at that stage where they're in. Well, what is AI? And I tried Chap GPT once and I didn't feel comfortable with it. And so there's a whole upskilling piece that needs to go on around the board table. And when you see that coverage in the media that you mentioned around AI being scary, often people talk about the we, need to upskill workforce. I think that's right. But we also need to upskill senior leaders as well. Otherwise they are not going to be able to make the right decisions and provide the right scrutiny and support and strategy for their charities to move forward.

Tim Beynon: That's fascinating about the upskilling side of things, and I completely agree. If we're not looking at new roles, it's definitely going to be important for us to upskill those existing roles so that we understand exactly what we're, getting into and what the potential is for AI across our organisations. So on that front, where would you recommend people turn if they want to think right. We need to up our skills here, at whatever level that might be. Where do they turn? Where should they look?

Zoe Amar: Yes, there's lots of different places you can, look at. So, firstly, we've got a, free AI checklist for Charity trustees and leaders, but anyone in any Charity can use it. And I think in order to get handled on your skills, you also need to get a sense of, well, where are we with AI? What have we done? What haven't we done? Just so that you get a sense of why am I developing these skills and which one should be a priority. So I think doing a bit of self assessment, is a good thing. and then there's so many webinars out there, about AI in the Charity

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Zoe Amar: sector now, and I'm a trustee at Charity digital and there's some really good work that they're doing around AI and some great content. I'm, sure I've seen Charity comms covering this kind of thing as well, so I don't think it's hard to access training and webinars. What I'd also say is that the value with AI is very much going to be in what you do when you get back to your desk. And yes, whilst that's also true of any kind of training and learning and development, the development, of the adoption of these tools, you know, it's going at such a rate that you want to make sure that you are trying to use them in some, most days or certainly quite frequently. So you're building your skills, you're building your confidence, you're building that understanding of what the possibilities are. So definitely look out for training and resources and guidance and talk to your peers. But also remember that the most progress you're probably going to make is at your desk and working with your team.

Tim Beynon: And just getting stuck in giving it a go, essentially. Yeah. Zoe, that's been fascinating. Thank you so much for joining us. Really, really appreciate you taking some time out to do so.

Is the future bright for AI in our sector?

Got to ask you final question. Just give us a glimpse of the future. What does the future hold? Are we all heading towards a Terminator style apocalypse or are we, is the future bright for the third sector and AI?

Zoe Amar: I think the future is bright if we make the right decisions. So what I've seen since chatter GPT got launched in November 2022 is that there are, a fair few charities have gone into this experimentation and indeed, to some extent, testing mode. What we need to do now is to look at what we've all learned from that phase and to start to make decisions about where we prioritise our effort and our investment, and where we might need to upskill further and where these tools might help us achieve our strategy. And so we need to be at a point now where we're looking at where we prioritise and where we make the right decisions that are going to take us forward and that's where leadership and strategy and boards are going to be even more important.

Tim Beynon: Cool. Zoe, thank you ever so much for your time, very much.

Piers Townley: That was brilliant. Thank you, Zo. really interesting. Really interesting because we're seeing as well, everyone is seeing it every single day now, aren't they? It's just crazy.

Zoe Amar: They really are. They really are. And thank you so much. I really enjoyed that. That was really fun.

Superstars of the week

Piers Townley: In each episode of the Charity show we want to celebrate our sector superstars, those incredible people working, volunteering and fundraising across our sector. And you can nominate your deserving colleagues, volunteers or funders fundraisers. Just email us at thecharityshowpodmail.com or get in touch through the links in the show notes. You can even send us a voice message that we can play out in the next episode. What's your superstar this week, Tim?

Tim Beynon: well actually there's three people this week, not just the one. I've got three. Three superstars that I'm really keen to give a mention to. The three amazing guys and you might have heard of them, three dads who have been walking, in recognition and in memory of their daughters and to honour their daughter's memory, these three dads ever so sadly lost their daughters, to suicide at an incredibly young age. And the three guys, Andy Airy, Mike Palmer, and Tim Owen, have all very rightly received honours, from the king and been made MBE's in the king's birthday honours. So incredibly deserving. and I'm really glad that they have received those awards and recognition of the incredible work theyve done. Theyve walked 500 miles from Stirling to Norwich, to raise money for papyrus, a young suicide, prevention Charity. And in total they raised more than 1.4 million pounds. So an incredible sum of money and an amazing amount of awareness. But of course, this is a bittersweet story because these free guys, im sure they said in the quotes, in the stories around this, you know, they're grateful for the honour and for the recognition but obviously, you know, they would swap it all in an instance to have their daughters back. So, incredibly moving story and I just wanted to sort of, you know, mention them and really just a shout out to the fact that these are people who really deserve that kind of recognition in the honours and through the honours system. yes, of course it's, you know, the headlines are grabbed by the celebrities in terms, terms of those who are honoured and received the high awards from the king. and they do incredible work for charities. We can't discount that they do some amazing work and do some amazing good, but it's these stories of people like Andy, Mike and Tim, who lost their daughters. Beth Palmer, who was 17, Emily Owen, who was 19, and Sophie Airy, who was 29, lost their daughters to suicide. And throughout their pain, despite their pain, and they've come together to do what they've done, raise incredible sum of money and awareness for this incredible charity. and yeah, so they are the people who really deserve those honours. Ah. And I'm glad that they've been recognised in that way. So very bittersweet story for me this week, but, some very deserving guys.

Piers Townley: Yeah, that's really moving, really, really poignant.

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Piers Townley: But an incredible amount of awareness and incredible, amount of money as well. Hopefully we'll touch and reach out to so many others.

Tim Beynon: Yeah, absolutely. Who's your superstar this week, piers?

Piers Townley: Well, actually I'm hoping it's going to run into the hundreds of superstars because what's caught my eyes is a planned paddle out this Sunday, the 30 June, organised by the healing waves Charity and RNLI jersey. And it's a, paddle out as a traditional hawaiian tribute to honour the life and, you know, legacy of a person who's died. Really popular within the surfing community. Community. And this Sunday, healing waves are hoping that over 350 people will join this paddle out and raise an enormous amount of money for two, incredible charities. And Vicky's quoted in the BBC saying loads of interest with several surfing schools signing up, want to reach Jersey's water based communities. She goes on to say it'll be amazing to get as many people as possible out there together, raising funds for not just one, but two amazing charities, as we've just said. And interestingly, the world record is quoted in the piece for a paddle out is 511 and Vicky saying that it would be cool if they could break the record that day. So my shout out, my superstars are everyone who's already signed up to go out for this paddle out on Sunday and let's just hope that they can beat that number, 511. It's only a small amount of people, so I'm sure that they'll smash it, but I think already they've got 350. So, a massive shout out to everyone donning their wetsuits and grabbing their boards and joining the paddle out.

Tim Beynon: Yeah, just need an extra 162 people.

Piers Townley: It's terrible.

Tim Beynon: Come on, sunshine.

Piers Townley: It could be an amazing day.

Tim Beynon: Exactly. If you've got. Have you got a surfboard you can join them with, piers?

Piers Townley: No. No.

Tim Beynon: Well, you could take it. You could take a kayak, you can paddle it.

Piers Townley: Yes, exactly. It's one of those sports I'd like to think I'm pretty good at, but I'm not.

Coming up on The Charity Show

So that's it for this episode. Huge thanks to Zoe for displaying some of the myths around AI. What have we got coming up over the next few weeks, Tim?

Tim Beynon: We've got some really, really cool stuff coming up over the next couple of episodes, actually. We are going to be finding out about the psyche of the average british donor and how the fundraising landscape is changing, especially in the wake of things like the pandemic and the cost of living crisis. So we're going to be speaking to Katie Docherty, chief executive of the Chartered Institute of Fundraising. That, will be in the next episode, and then in the episode after that, we're going to be talking to the strategic leader of the year. So Vicky Beavers, chief executive of the sleep Charity, is going to join us to tell us about the importance of strategy for charities of all sizes. So some really, really exciting stuff. And then you've got some other things in the pipeline, which I'll keep up by sleeve for the moment, but some other things coming up in the naughty, distant future too.

Piers Townley: Sounds great, Tim. And don't forget, there are loads of ways you can get involved in future episodes too. We'd love to hear about the great work your charity is doing, for example. Or if you've got an idea for a topic or story you'd like us to cover, do let us know about it.

Tim Beynon: Absolutely. You can get in touch through the links in the show notes or by emailing us at, thecharityshowpodmail.com. so come and tell us about that innovative new project you've been working on, or nominate someone outstanding for a superstar of the week mention.

Piers Townley: And in the meantime, please follow us on your usual podcast platform and leave us a review, both of which will help other charity folks to find the shank.

Tim Beynon: So that's it for this episode. Take care and we'll see you soon.

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