Episode 17 - Full Transcript

 

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Coming up in Episode 17

Tim Beynon: Hello and welcome to the Charity show, the podcast for Charity Insiders by Charity Insiders. Please rate, follow or subscribe to us on your usual podcast platform and here's what's coming up in episode 17.

Piers Townley: Mark Zuckerberg has followed Musk with profound changes to Meta. So it his s early days so far that Zuckerberg's announcement this week that the platform is radically scaling back on his content moderation and leaving it to quote community notes similar to the approach of Musk has taken with X. But the implications, for third sector, are, potentially huge.

Tim Beynon: We want to hear all your charity achievements, all your charity first, all those amazing things that you're doing, things you've got planned for the year ahead, things you're hoping to achieve, things you're doing at the charity over the course of the next 12 months.

Sally Williams: I do feel, especially in the UK, they get a really bad rap, especially in the press. You know, they either haven't given too much or they've given to the wrong charity or they're it for their own, you know, egos or wrong reasons. And I don't see any of that. The people I've dealt with all along have just been the loveliest, most genuine kind people.

Tim Beynon: Obviously we live in a digital age. We talk a lot about digital in terms of what we can do to market digitally and emails, so on and so forth, but you're right, a simple card in the post and the rnlive ended up with a 1.4 million pound gift. Hello, happy new year and welcome to episode 17 of the Charity show with me, Tim Beynon, Head of Marketing engagement at Fire Fighters Charity.

Piers Townley: And me, Piers Townley, PR Manager at the Brain Tumour Charity.

Tim Beynon: So, Pier's good to see you, we're back, it's 2025. I know we re're pretty much halfway through January already, but Happy New Year. Good to see you. Did you have a good break?

Piers Townley: Yeah, really good, Tim, really good. As we talk about it goes so quick, so quick you have what, you want some time to switch off and then you want some time to cook the Christmas dinner and you want some time to go and see people. It just gone in a flash and you're ride nearly halfway through January and it's full steam ahead. So yeah, yeah, back straight back into it. We're good. Didn't manage to switch off totally. There was a cheeky little cheque in with emails, little cheeky cheque in with charity social media. It's very hard, I think from any sort of comms team Perhaps working in all sorts of teams in the charities. It's very hard to switch off in this 247 culture that we sometimes have. But yeah manage that fairly, fairly well this week, this first week or so back has been as I say full on. We've got a magazine that the charity, the Brain Tumour charity does called the Greay Matters coming out in March is new, the new issue rather and that's the Brain Tumour Awareness Month Bam as we call it's a big hero campaign awareness month for the brain tumour community in the UK and obviously our great matters hits there and we're doing an interview with one of our high profile supporters, the actress, Hollywood actress Amy Nutle. She supported us for over a year now since she's losing her mom to a brain tumour. So we've got to be golf photo shoot with her next week. So it's just running around like headless chickens making sure all the factors are in place. So this photo shoot goes well. But yeah, so that's just been dominating my first week back. How about you?

Tim Beynon: Yeah, good, good, thanks. Yeah, likewise. It takes me a little while to sort of get back into things after Christmas. Such a weird time isn't it? And then when you get back in January it does take a little while to get you get back into the flow of things but had had a good break like yourself it was nice just to escape a little bit. but yeah, you know as you inevitably do you always just keep a little line on what's going on and also all credit to my team who did a great job over the course of Christmas of shed pre scheduling all the content that goes out on social. So you know it was lovely to see you know every day or something especially around Christmas and New year some you know suitable appropriate messaging going out to show our support and remind community that we're here for them throughout the period and all that kind of stuff. And that was all down to some very fantastic sort of comms work and pre planning and scheduling in advance which I can't take any credit for at all. So that was, that was great and good to see but Christmas itself for me lovely, nice and nice and relaxed. Apart from the entire family getting Norov Viirus on new over the course of New Year which is pretty grim. but apart from that, yeah it all, it was not too bad. Thanks. It was a good break and good to be back but yeah it's been, also been good I think in January, as is inevitably always the case. Just kind of have a think about the year ahead and I think what we've got coming up and for us on the charity show here, I think it's a great opportunity and this is our first episode back in 2025. Just to remind everybody, all our listeners that, you know, we're really, really keen to share your stories as well. We want to hear all your charity achievements, all your charity first, all those amazing things that you're doing, things you've got planned for the year ahead, lessons you've learned along the way, things you're hoping to achieve or new, new things you're doing at the charity over the course of the next 12 months. If you'd like to sort of spotlight an area of your work or champion some of your

00:05:00

Tim Beynon: fantastic people, then please do get in touch, let us know what's going on with you. All the links are in the show notes and come on to the show, tell everyone else about it. Yeah, be a part of the show. We looking forward to it.

Piers Townley: Major donor philanthropy is crucial to income generation for many charities. But across fundraising teams is perhaps one of the longest and trickiest donor pipelines to manage. Where do you find your major donors? How do you approach them, how do you nurture them once you've identified them? And how do you ensure that your major donors hang around for the long term? It's not exactly a world Tim Oai know a great deal about, but Sally Williams, now head of philanthropy at the Royal College of Physicians, certainly does. We caught up with her at the tail end of last year when she was still in her previous role as senior philanthropy manager at the Institute of Cancer Research. Hi, Sally, welcome to the show. It's, good to talk to you today. Today about all things philanthropic. I have to be careful when I say that. I always get my tongue.

Sally Williams: So many people cannot say it. Trust me, you're in a good community.

Piers Townley: You look at it and then itly goes, doesn't it? So tell us a little bit about your background. First of all, because you, you started off in the armedaces, didn't you spend many, many years actually in the armed services? you talk us through that.

Sally Williams: well, it seems like a whole lifetime ago now. I served for 24 years in the British army, joined when I was 19 back insh the early 90s. served all over the world. Some nice places, Canada and Kenya was quite nice and, London, but also the trickier places like, Iraq and Afghanistan. So, yeah, all over the place, really. but 24 years was quite a long time.

Piers Townley: It sounds like a small question because I'm going to ask you the obvious thing. I'm sure it's a bigger question, really. Did you enjoy it? Did you enjoy your, arms?

Sally Williams: I did. I expected to do about six years when I joined. I thought, I'll travel and meet people. And then it sort of went on from there, really. And I thought, well, I'm okay at this. It's quite good. I quite enjoy it. The PA is all right. and then it. Six years turned into 24 years, and that was it. But after 22 years as a full career, and you get a military pension and things like that. So I'd done enough time. I'd got married by then and he was starting to drag a little bit. my mum passed away very suddenly and I thought, no, if I don't leave now, I never will and I need to do something different.

Piers Townley: So why the third sector? I. It's a completely different pace of life.

Sally Williams: It is. I just couldn't imagine ever working for, for a profit company. I just. I just couldn't imagine it in myself in that position. I think, I still feel as though I'm serving and doing good by being in the charity sector. It's a wonderful space to be in. I mean, you both know that the people in the sector are incredible. It's doing amazing things. I'd always done a bit of fundraising through my military career, as you do, you know, bake sales and fancy dress things and, you know, that kind of stuff. I'd supported military charities, of course. in my first operational tour in Bosnia, the early 90s, we took a load of truckloads of toys over to the orphans over there. And I think that's just been instilled in me from my parents really as well. So all my life I've done fundraiseising type things and it seemed quite a natural thing to do to try and work in the third sector.

Tim Beynon: It's a really interesting career m move and we see, we speak to people on the show and who perhaps have moved from a corporate world into, into the charity sector. But this is the first in terms of moving from a, career in the armed services into the, sector. Certainly for us on this show would. I mean, it's a difficult question for me to. I've got no idea. But is there any similarities? Do you see, is anything in common between your life in the army and your life in the third sector?

Sally Williams: I think, of course it's very, very different, but there are similarities. there's a lot of change. You have to be quite adaptable. I think a lot of the skills I learned in my military career, are very transferable to our sector. I feel that I'm very resourceful. You, if something goes wrong, I could think, okay, think on my feet. How do we change that or rectify that? I think I'm fairly adaptable and I'm used to change and, resilience is another thing I've had to learn and I think in the third sector especially, that's very, very useful to be, resilient in role, I think, organationalal skills. I think I'm fairly organised and I think that definitely comes from my military background. the military teaches you leadership skills in bucket loads from, you know, from a young private soldier all the way up through your career. You have leadership, courses and things to do all the time. So I think there is a lot of transferable skills across into the third sector. Remind me of the original question because I think I've gone off that'it.

Tim Beynon: You answered it. You answered it brilliantly. it is fascinating, is it just to see those, those links between the two by totallyly understand those transferable skills and out of interest, any of your

00:10:00

Tim Beynon: peers when you're in the army, any of them. Are you aware of any of them moving into a similar role or into the 3rd/b or are you on your.

Sally Williams: Own level, not into fundraising? I think some have gone on to work for military charities and actually I worked for a military charity when I left the army because again, I thought that was the natural thing to do, natural progression. But I wasn't in fundraising and that's what I really wanted to do. So some of my peers have gone on to do other roles within military charities, which is nice to see as well, and use their skills in the sector.

Tim Beynon: Fantastic. Good to see very deserving charities as well, of course.

tell us a little bit about your role today then. And tell us a little bit about the Institute of Cancer Research and also what a senior philanthropy M getting my tongue around that as well. Senior flanthropy manager does, I must admit, looking through sort of job titles you keep. You have look on job boards and things. It's not a title you see very often. Senior philanthropy man. He's usually senior fundraising or senior major donors or whatever. So tell us a little bit about your role specifically.

Sally Williams: The Institute of Cancer Research was formed in 1909 with the Royal Marsden. But then when the NHS was formed in 1948, we had to split away from, the Royal Marsden. So the Royal Marsden is a partner hospital of the Institute for Cancer Research. We're across two sites, one in Chelsea and one in Sutton. We have 850 brilliant researchers and clinicians doing all kinds of cancer research, from basic molecular cancer research to all the way up to translational research. That's usually a word I can't say. Translational, research and clinical trials. we train. I say we, I don't, but we. The ICR trains half of the UK's oncologists. We have a brilliant PhD, studentship programme. And when I arrived at the ICR, I thought each laboratory would look at a different type of cancer. This would do breast cancer, this was laboratory would do prostate cancer, etc. But it's not like that at all. There's so much collaboration across the laboratories. We have, centreers looking at protein degradation, immunotherapy, M, radiography, all aspects of cancer research and they all collaborate together and then look at the different types of cancer within that. So it's quite an amazing place. The breadth and the depth of the research absolutely blows my mind on a daily basis. and we're right at the coal face of the science, if you like. So that's the ICR in a very potted history, I guess, and we've made a lot of discoveries along the way as well. So the ICR was, the first to deduce that, DNA damage was, the basic cause of cancer. we discovered that, ah, the carcogn in, cigarette smoke caused cancer. They discovered the BRCAT2 gene, which is sometimes called the Angelina Joe, gene. So I've had a lot of discoveries on the way, and we've had two successful, drug discoveries of abaratoryone and cappiva certib, ones for prostate cancer and ones for breast cancer. So it's a pretty amazing place to work and to be doing my role to enable or to help that kind of drug discovery and cancer research happen is just the best job in the world.

so to go on to your second question, what is a senior Philanthropy Manager? I think a lot of charities do have major gifts and philanthropy officers, sometimes they're one and the same. But I think, what do I do at the icr? My role is to, in a nutshell, build relationships with people who might have the capacity to invest in cancer research, and allow those discoveries of the future in a nutshell, that's what I do. I, build relationships with people, and network with people and bring them in to see the science and hopefully that's what they want to do. I know that makes it sound so easy and such a simple job, but in a nutshell, that's what a philanthropy manager does. manages the programme of philanthropy within an organisation.

Tim Beynon: Such an important job. I must say, as a cancer survivor myself, I'm hugely grateful to organisation like yours for the amazing work that you do, because I probably wouldn't be here without, without you guys. So, yeah, hats off to you for sure.

Piers Townley: What are the, what are the key considerations in your role, Sally, with, you know, the key donors, the major donors? What, when it comes to developing and maintaining relationships with them, what are the kind of. What's the blueprint for that at the very early stages of relationship?

Sally Williams: Oh, my goodness. I think talking to people and more importantly, listening to them, a lot of people just talk out donors and want or prospects and go meet them and say, here are all the amazing things, pretty much what I just did to you. This is all the amazing stuff about the icr, but don't listen to people. Listening to a prospect or listening to a donor is so important because you need to get it right. another consideration is appreciate the time that it takes to build those relationships. It can take 12 months, 18 months plus to be in a position where either, you feel comfortable to ask a prospect for a significant gift or they want to say to you, okay, I really like what you do, I like your charity. What can I do for you? How much can I give you? What projects can I invest in? So it's really about building the relationships, taking the steps to do that, taking the time and appreciating

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Sally Williams: the time. And I think, a charity needs to invest in their major gift programme as well, and not just assume that it can just happen or somebody can just do it as a second dream role. It really takes time and investment.

Tim Beynon: It's not a quick win, is it? Major gifts are not a quick win.

Sally Williams: And that's why it needs to be alongside other income streams as well. I mean, I think, pe, as somebody we used to work with, the brain tumour charity, used to say to me, o ah, I couldn't do your job. I couldn't do your job. It's too involved with the donors. And she was involved on, the kind of IND individual giving side where that's lots of people giving smaller gifts, which is Equally as brilliant and important, but it's just the other end of the scale. Small amounts of people given those larger gifts.

Piers Townley: I've struck, Sally, because obviously, yes, we have worked together and you know, the likes of John Wden and some of our, major, major donors that we had at the Brain Tum charity, how close you became to them. So you became not just someone who was a representative of the charity, but you can't reun it. You became a friend, you became a friend of the family. You held their hand when they needed you, metaphorically and kind of literally, especially when they were doing some of their amazing fundraising and especially when they've been touched, so deeply. I mean, I never saw any of this, but are there conflicts that, that come up with this sort of relationship? Are there kind of things that you have to then deal with almost on a regular basis or is it just a case by case?

Sally Williams: I think it is a case by case. I've never thankfully experienced any real conflict. Sometimes as little niggles or trickiness, I should say that, you know, you've got to appreciate the donor has given or is it, or might give a significant amount of money and that's a big deal for them, that's a big decision and they're, they need to trust you and invest if they want to invest in your cause. and you've got to appreciate that. But equally you could be a really small team or even a one man band trying to do everything and it might just take a little bit longer than they might expect. so it's just trying to balance that really. but there I haven't really, I've been very fortunate not to have had any people that are too tricky. Generally major donors and philanthropists and people in that position are very nice people and I do feel, especially in the uk, they get a really bad rap, especially in the press. You know, they either haven't given too much or they've given to the wrong charity or they're doing it for, they're doing it for their own, you know, egos or wrong reasons. And I don't see any of that. The people I've dealt with all along have just been the loveliest, most genuine, kind people who are passionate in cancer research, either in brain tumours where peers and I used to work, or cancer research in more generally where I am now.

Tim Beynon: Do have you ever found a tool that donors perhaps have asked for their money to be ring fenced and spent in a certain area and that might not be what, how the charity would want to do that. Or perhaps the charity doesn't have a policy of ring fencing at all. What is that? Often does that come up?

Sally Williams: I mean, I can only speak for the charities I've worked for, obviously. and it is different to all charities. But, yes, there is a balance between people wanting to restrict their gifts into a certain project, which is brilliant, of course, but equally, you know, charities need to switch the lights on, charities need to pay salaries and, you know, all of those things. So there is a balance. I like both gifts. I think it's when someone gives you an un streetited gift, it's actually so humbling because they really trust you, they like the organisation, you know, that's really nice. But equally, I understand that projects are really important to donors as well and seeing the impact of that project all the way through. so we. I've experienced both and both are equally as rewarding and important, I think.

Piers Townley: I think that speaks to your particular skillir, Sally, and obviously I'mbiased I've worked with you, but fundraisers and legacy teams and major donor teams across the skill set is understanding the needs of the donors and the needs of the charity and making those two line up. And obviously ites, if it goes well and is smoothly, then that'site quite a straightforward relationship. But the manipulation of different needs is something I guess you have to manage on an individual basis.

Sally Williams: Yes. And it's the longevity of these relationships that I particularly enjoy because somebody might have funded, you know, one project for a couple of years, then they've got to know you, more on the charity more so then they might give you an unrestricted gift, then there might be a project that comes up that, you know, they're going to be particularly interested in. Just go and talk to them about it and then they might want to do that as well. I think the beauty of being a philanthropy manager is building those relationships with people to a certain point where it's not that uncomfortable to ask. You know, we can be very British and talking about money and it's a bit scary. but if you've met the prospect or a donor, that many times, you know them, you know what inspires them to give,

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Sally Williams: you know, what they like. To be in that position to make an appropriate ask is fantastic. And like, as I say, it can take a long time to get to that point once you're there. Such an impactful relationship.

Piers Townley: Really interesting to hear Sally's thoughts on major donors. We've got the second part of that interview coming up shortly.

But before that, Tim, what third section news have you spotted this week?

Tim Beynon: Got a couple of really interesting stories this week that caught my eye for a couple of very different reasons. First off, just because fascinated by gifts and whees and legacies, it's probably an area that we haven't covered enough on the show. Looking forward to covering it a bit more, in the future. But this is a story about an R and L I lifeboat that's named after a man, who gifted, the charity £1.4 million in his will. So a really, really sizable, donation, and gift, legacy gift from this, this one guy. And this was a chap called. He's a professional musician, a chap called Roy Holloway. and he left the vast majority of his savings to the RNI, when he died, in June 2014 at the age of 81. Alth know that seems like quite a long time ago, but now, 10 years after, his passing, that donation has helped to fund a new Shannon class lifeboat for the RN LI's Arlow Lifeboat Station, which is Ireland's oldest lifeboat station. And the boat has been named Roy Holloway in his honour. Now, that in itself is an amazing story. One by four million pound gift is, incredible and very generous to say the least. But the amazing thing about this story, and this is a bit that really caught my eye. It's believed that Roy had very little awareness of the R and the light until one Christmas when a friend sent him a card with a lifeboat on the front. The card featured a bright orange boat battling through rough seas. And Roy liked it so much that he brought it out every Christmas to display on his piano. So, quite incredible really. And I think the thing that really struck me about that is that the power of, it wasn't really marketing, it was a card. He was sent a card and that'there was enough to instil something in him that, you know, made him think about the work of the R andli and the work of those volunteer lifeboat men and women and the work they do. And there's so much so that it meant so much to him over such long period of time that he ended up leaving the vast majority of his estate, to the rnni. So there you go, something to think about for legacy marketers out there.

Piers Townley: that's really interesting to, isn't it? Because just, just before Christmas we were speaking about Christmas cards, weren't we, in charity Christmas cards and you know, do the younger generation send cards these days? And how important are Cards to charities and there you go. It's these subtle stories that like, okay, this is an old legacy kind of way of doing marketing Fority it's working. It's still working. It's still important.

Tim Beynon: Yeah, there you go. I mean obviously we live in a digital age. We talk a lot about digital in terms of what we can do to market digitally and emails and so on and so forth. But you're right, a simple card in the Post and the IR Andli ended up with a 1.4 million pound gift, as a result. So incredible there that old school direct milil marketing still obviously has a place in this world which is great. Also just a little quote here. He said it's understood that he mentioned to family before passing that he would leave quote a little something to the rnli as he admired the work and bravery of the lifeboat Crewise. So if I ever got to the stage where 1.4 million is a little something, I'd be very happy. So yeah, amazing story. So that's the first one that caught my eye. The second story. I don't know if you're a Snoop Dogg fan. Psy.

Piers Townley: Yeah.

Tim Beynon: Sn all his albums, Dr. Trey, Snoop Dogg, has worked with artists including Stevie One. Obviously he's an A list, celebrity musician. Worked with artists like Stevie under Katy Perry, Mariah Carey, all the big names. But now a small London charity, for people with learning disabilities has joined that list. So the rapper with Dr. Dre sampled a song called Watermelon Fantasy which was released by the charity Daylight Studio in 2018. and that that has featured on his new single Outer de Blue. You got it PS on the, on your Spotify.

Piers Townley: Oh yeah, I've got it on the vinyl and everything.

Tim Beynon: Anyway, it featedatured on that single which is released on the 13th of December. And Watermelon Fantasy is performed by three artists with learning disabilities and produced by the founder of Daylight Studio and one of its trustees. Snoop Dogg and Dr. Dre have between them sold millions of records and have 42 Grammy Award nominations. So, you know, this has taking this small charity, to the big time and the people who featured in it, you know, to new heights as well. So Tina Bruins, who features on the track and lives in supported housing in North London said, I was shocked. I remember being like, what? I didn't know it was going to be released by Dr. Dre and Stoop Dog. I thought, no, I thought it was a fantasy. She said, so imagine that for Tina. What an incredible thing she, she's features on this track. She has learning disabilities, she works with this charity. she contributed to this song

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Tim Beynon: and it's been sampled by one of the biggest musicians on the planet. So amazing, amazing for her. Just to sort of add to that in terms of where it's been featured this song, out of the Blue, it's been featured in the trailer for Back In Action, a new Netflix film due to be released in January this month starring Cameron Diaz and Jamie Fox. It's been on the American football video game Madden NFL 25 and in an Amazon Music Live series where Snoop Dogg performs songs from throughout his career. So incredible. So there you go. And proceeds from the collaboration will be split equally between Bruins and two other artists with learning disabilities. So they are directly benefiting from this single. so the other two people benefiting are Mandy Pridis and Cedric Letu Alemmbo, with production shares being donated back to the charity itself. So not only ah, are they you know, obviously receiving incredible profile as result of this, but hopefully that small charity in London is going to hugely benefit from this worldwide exposure with this Snooped Dog track. So yeah, amazing stuff. What about you Peier? What have you spotted in the news?

Piers Townley: Great musical starts of the year. So mine's a short one but a really important one. And it was the news this week that is hugely unpredictable and it's a worrying shift in the landscape that ah, Mark Zuckerberg has followed Musk with profound changes to meta platform. So it's early days so far but Zuckerberg's announcement this week that the platform is radically scaling back on his content moderation and leaving it to quote Community Notes. We know how well that goes or doesn't go sarcastically similar to the approach that Musk has taken with X. But the implications for comms and the implications for third sector are potentially huge. And this is unfolding news. It'll be very, very interesting to see how this reaches out across everything but particularly with charities and the work that we all do. Third sector, ah, magazine, third sector website as a quote about, quite interesting one. It says, quote, the move will open the floodgates of disinformation and mean it is more difficult for voluntary sector organisations to moderate online content. Something that our respective social teams are going to have to deal with and the charity comm teams as a whole. So this is something I think we'll be delving into very, very soon in future episodes and we'd love to get some experts on the podcast to discuss the implications, you know, for all UK charities.

Tim Beynon: It's a really, that's, you know, it is a fascinating thing to keep an eye on, I think. And I think also I spotted actually yesterday because this only broke a couple of days ago when as we're talking today, this news and I saw yesterday that Zoe Amr, who's been a previous guest on the show digital charity, digital coms specialist, is asking for experts in the field to talk to her and to collaborate with her on this as well. So she's obviously trying to get, get to grips with the implications of this as well and what it means for the sector. So maybe we can give, give Zoe and a ring, see if she fancy's coming back on the show to ab a chat about that. but it is, it is fascinating but also I think it's really sad if it kind of is going to negatively impact charities in the way that, that X has and X has become this, this, this you place for such, such you know, hurtful, damaging, content, if Facebook follows suit, I think that's a really sad state of affairs and it, it opens other door potentially as well for you know, those other smaller social media platforms to come to the force. Things like Blue Sky. Remember Adela Warley from Charity Comms who was talking to us about that and a few shows ago, soeah, maybe it's time for the big boys to make way for some of the small players in the social world. So a really interesting thing to keep an eye on.

Piers Townley: Think hugely shifting sannd. Yeah.

Tim Beynon: Earlier in the show we met Sally Williams, head of Philanthropy at the Royal College of Physicians, to find out more about philanthropy and working with major donors. And in the second part of our interview we wanted to find out what money aside, success actually looks like for those who work in this particular field and how charities of all sizes can compete to win over major donors. Sally, what kind of external factors can impact the sort of landscape for philanthropy fundraising? Is it things like the cost of living crisis that happened or changing government that we see we obviously seen this year as well? Today's kind of external factors affect your life in terms of making, make it easier or harder. Are there certain things from outside pressures were outside the impacts?

Sally Williams: I think the cost of living for sure. I mean if you're talking the charity sector as a whole, I think last year the figures were, haven't got them to hand. It's something like 13 point something billion that that UK public gave to charities and that was up from the year before, but it was less donors were giving back, so it was bigger

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Sally Williams: gifts that were being given. Of course, the cost of living crisis is affecting everyone, is affecting donors. Of course it affects charities because we all need to switch the lights on and pay people. And also the charity sector staff as well, because I think the sector's losing good people because they need higher paid jobs. I think the sector is getting better at paying people well. But, you know, you go and work for a bank, you'renn get a higher salary. So I think, yes, cost of living, of course affects everyone, but in my world, with major donors, they are, they are still affected, but I would say less so. And actually some major donors and philanthropists, are, because of the nature of what's going on in the country and the world, are wanting to give more and give bigger gifts. So there's, you know, in my world, philanthropy, I think it's less affected by external factors, but of course it is affected.

Tim Beynon: Sure.

And talking about external factors as well, have you ever had a situation or how you. How would you approach a sort of ethical dilemma in terms of a donor, perhaps someone approaching you wanting to give, who, who, for whatever reason, the ethics of that donation might not align with the ethics of the organisation you work for. Is that something that's ever sort of crossed your desk or something you've had to take into consideration? Have you ever turned down a donation on the back of an ethical issue?

Sally Williams: So, again, I can only speak for the charities I work for, but of course that isn't, a concern for all charities across the board. we follow, and I think all charities follow their own due diligence process. So if you're looking into a prospect and you're thinking about asking someone, you'll kind of see, have they had any negative press? Are they, involved with any businesses that might not align with your particular cause and charity? For example, cancer charities, probably wouldn't ask someone in the tobacco industry or possibly even the alcohol industry, because they could be, you know, causes of cancer. so. And I've never had to turn down a gift, thankfully, or what a horrib position to be in. but I know that if we had a concern like that, or there was an issue that we were kind of undecided about, we can take it to our trustees and, follow a whole procedure that's set in place. So I have no qualms about that. I haven't had to turn down a gift, but what I have had to do is Stop kind of engaging with someone because they suddenly did have some negative press and it wouldn't have been good to pursue that person for a major donation. which is really frustrating.

Tim Beynon: But, yeah, you know, it happens. It happens.

Piers Townley: Unfortunately, Soly, just turning to charities and the impact that they have, obviously all charities have to demonstrate the impact that the funds that they raise have for the cause that they're supporting. Do you find that's a little bit more acute with major donors? Do you have to pay a bit more attention and delve a bit deeper into exactly where their money will go, or do you think that's just the same as it is across types of donations in their charity? And do you have any tips on how you. How you kind of show that impact?

Sally Williams: I think major donors and philanthropists, you need to treat them as individuals because you could have one donut that really doesn't want to hear from you at all all year. and it can be hard to kind of ascertain that because there's major donor fundraisers, of course, we want to send them the impact report, we want them to come and see what we do. We want to do X, Y and Z with them throughout the year. But some don't want that. Some just want an impact for once a year and that's it. Other donors want to be more involved. and I think demonstrating the impact is so important, but also really enjoyable too. It can be very difficult depending on the charity you work for. but, for example, we bring people in to see the science, bring people into the laboratories. And, yeah, of course, it takes a bit of organisation and there's logistics involved and people might not be able to come from Scotland down to London, whatever, but you can record it or you can show them the lab on a video. there are other ways to show the impact that don't cost a lot of money. we at the Brainrem of charity peers, we contacted some families who had, been affected by a brain tumour and we asked their children would they do some Christmas cards. And it was just an idea a few years ago and we sent them some blank cards and these beautifully beautiful Christmas cards came back from these children who had then handwritten them, you know, age 5 or written in there. My father passed away from a brain tumour. I'm not going to get teary. and, you know, thank you so much for supporting the charity. And they went down an absolute storm with our major donors. I mean, they didn't really cost very much and it was hugely impactful. So I think showing the impact doesn't have to. Doesn't have to cost a lot of money and doesn't have to be too involved. It can be such a little thing. but, if you were investing that kind of money into a cause or a charity, you kind of want to know where it is spent and you'd want to know you're investing the right charity and the right CAs. So I think it's really,

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Sally Williams: really important.

Piers Townley: Yeah, really a huge point there, Sally, because I think with all dos, really, if you're dealing with celebrities or you're dealing with, you know, a community bake sale, you want to rise above being a transactional thing. You want them to be with you on the course, to stand beside you, I guess, and that must be true of major donors.

Sally Williams: Yeah. And I think you can also use assets from other areas of the charity. You know, if there is, an impact report being done for the whole charity, of course you can send that and perhaps send it with a handwritten note in it to say, I think you'll be particularly interested in page five, you know, so use the assets that you've got as well.

Piers Townley: And that could be harder though, couldn't. I was just thinking we were able to do that and we are able to do that at the Brain Trument charity because we're relatively small, our, pool of people. But when you get to a bigger charity, when you get to the likes of the icr, and your supporters and your benefactors are hugely spread out, that must be a bit more tricky then to try and give that personal touch.

Sally Williams: I think coming from the Brain Tuming charity where, as you say, peers. I think we did it really well. I say we. I'm not there anymore, but, you know, it was done very well. it was a different. It's just a different way of doing it at the icr. And actually our fundraising team is not very big for the size of the organisation. We're pretty lean. You look at the likes of the bigger charities, but then they have the expenditure to it to do it as well. So they might not necessarily have to use assets from other teams, I'd say.

Tim Beynon: As well, just in terms of impact, whether you're big or big or small, in terms of charity size, it's not all about statistics, data and showing how much has been achieved, over XY Z time and graphs and all that kind of stuff. It's, as you say, just as those example of those Christmas cards. It's about the real World, real life impact, real people, real stories. That's what we see at the firefighters charity. Makes a big difference. It's what really people really want to.

Sally Williams: See in hear I think donors again it's about knowing your donors and listening to them because some like the statistics and they like to know that X amount in the pound was spent on your charitable objectives or this many projects happened this year or they like the numbers but some really like the case stud. So why that Produce an impact report that has a bit of both or you tailor it to the individual as well.

Tim Beynon: Whilst we're talking about impact, next question is kind of aligned to that really, but more to do with you and your role in terms of how you measure success. So obviously we talked earlier in the interview about the fact that you know this kind of fundraising with major donors is a long term long term prospecting really in terms of you know, securing that donation down the road. So cash aside and money aside, how do you actually measure success? What's important to you at the end of the year to say I've achieved this?

Sally Williams: Yeah, that is a really tricky question. It's not tricky question, it's good to answer but it can be tricky for charities because you know we all have budgets to reach and numbers and money to bring in. But that's why it's good to have a diverse income stream because major donors does take a long time and you know we as major gift fundraisers shouldn't always be measured by we've bought in X amount of pounds. So what I do, where I am now or what we do is we measure the amount of people we've met face to face. That's my favourite KPI. How many people have I got out there and met? Because if I'm sat in the office behind my desk, you know that's a bit rubbish. As much as I like my colleagues, I'd rather be out there having cups of tea, having cups of coffee with people or bringing somebody in to see the laboratory. so it's about a number of people I've met face to face, number of phone calls and then the next one's ah, particular to the type of CRM that we use. We have Razor S edge which some people will think is terrible but it's okay. so it's the number of meaningful interactions which I always struggle with. It's quite a long term but you know it's how many letters are I sent out to that person, how many phone calls I encapsulates the whole thing, really. How many times have you interacted with that individual? I heard somewhere along the line that it can take seven or more interactions before a first major gift, which is, you know, quite a. A lot really. so we measure things like that. we measure repeat gifts as well. I mean, it's great if someone gives you £10,000 as a one off, but actually you'd rather they did that every year, ideally. So repeat gifts as well as another metric that we use.

Tim Beynon: Sure.

Can I ask you as well about competition? So we know there's a lot of cancer charities out there, there's a lot of competition vying for donors, money at the end of the day. How do you combat that? And how do you combat a bit of sort of donor fatigue? Because I imagine as well that they must get messages, phone at them and asks from different people, different charities all the time. How do you sort of make sure that the ICR rises above that and you are heard above that noise?

Sally Williams: Yeah, you're right there.

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Sally Williams: Especially in the cancer space, there's a lot of charities and you've got the big ones. See, you came mcm Milan. you've got the icr, you've got Maggie's and then you've got the individual cancer charities like the Brain IM charity, Prostate Cancer UK and all of the individual ones. And then you've also got a lot of family charities as well. So there's a whole range of, people all vying for that donor space. So I think it's about being authentic, really building those relationships. And we get asked this question all the time or we get confused and people think we are CU uk and we have to demonstrate o we're not actually CU uk. They're very different beasts to us, very different organisation. so it's about building the relationships and taking those steps to make sure people understand who we are, what we do. we mentioned that we do collaborate a lot with people, so CR UK fund us quite a lot. We have the individual charities, like the braining charity, that will fund projects within our laboratories and also those family charities as well. They also fund some of our projects. so it's appreciating that donors do get asked a lot by a lot of different people and if they go elsewhere, then that's okay. That's, you know, okay. All we can do is demonstrate what we do, and bring them in and show them what we do.

Piers Townley: It's a different tack of question on a personal level. Sally, are you very philanthropic? See I said it right then. and, what inspires you to give? What do you look for in a course?

Sally Williams: I would love to be a major donor. I'd love to be in a position to be a major donor.

Piers Townley: Wouldn't we all?

Sally Williams: Yeah. because I genuinely would give my money away in that kind of capacity if I could. am I philanthropic? Yes. So philanthropy actually means the love of mankind. It'from Greek mythology or something. I should know this. I've just studied philanthropal. but it means love of mankind. So it's not just about giving money. It can be giving your time, your talent, your testimony. They call it the five T's of philanthropy. So. So it doesn't have to be just about giving money. I've recently become a trustee for a very small charity, Veterans with Dogs. they pair, fully trained assistance dogs with veterans who need it for mental health challenges. I've just joined my old cadet unit where, when I grew up I was a cadet, to try and help them with their fundraising and bring some money in, being there. And I do support a lot of charities that are close to my heart. And I think if everybody could support, you know, a few charities in a little capacity, as much as I can, the world would be a better place. I support Dogs Trust, hospital where my mum went, veterans charities, rnli, the whole range from big to small charities. but yes, if everybody could do a little bit, then the world would be a nicer place.

Piers Townley: I think that's a definite yes to the question of bit in philanthropic, isn't it? I love, I love that idea. The five T's. I think it's a really important thing you touched on as well, which is a really lovely takeaway, is that it's not just money or it shouldn't be looked at as just money. It can be a whole range of things that can support, you know, any chosen.

Sally Williams: and I think that goes back to the donor fatigue as well, is the donors don't just want to be asked for money. Ask them for their advice. Ask them who their networks are. You know, if they trust you and they like your charity, would they introduce other people to come in and be donors as well? So it's not just about asking them for money. And don't forget that a major donor might also be a marathon runner, might also be a CEO of a company that could get involved and actually might like to do a bake sale. So, you know, people are people and they want to do lots of different things. Don't just treat them as, you know, one thing.

Piers Townley: Finally, Sally, we've noticed that you're a regular responder on our Friday named the charity quiz that we have with Charity Show. But you've done well so far. Are there any that I've got you stunt?

Sally Williams: Yes. And Firstly, I must say I love them. They're brilliant. And the first, first few, I thought I'm good at this mainly went downhill from there. And I tell you the minute I see it on a Friday morning, I mean, not that I should be looking on LinkedIn when you know, should be working, but, you know, you spot it on LinkedIn. I can't concentrate until I've got it. It really frustrates me and some of the simple ones have really stumped me and I show my husband and we go round in circles. So I actually wrote down the ones that I thought were quite difficult. Oxam. I mean, that's ridiculous.

Tim Beynon: Yeah, such a small word. And lots of people said cow. Cow family. Cow family. Yeah.

Sally Williams: Yes. WWF threw me as well. Battersea with the fish and chips. Yeaheah. But they're brilliant. I love them. Please don't stop doing them.

Tim Beynon: We won't. Thank you for joining us. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Sally Williams: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Piers Townley: In each episode of the charity show, we want to celebrate our sector superstars, those incredible people working, volunteering and fundraising across our sector. And

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Piers Townley: you can nominate your deserving colleagues, volunteers or fundraisers, just email us@the charityowpodmail uh.com or get in touch through the links in the show notes. You can even send us a voice message so we can play out in the next episode. This week though, Tim, we've got some rather special superstars to highlight.

Tim Beynon: Absolutely. We're going to take a closer look, at the real superstars from the King's 2025 New Year's Honorss. Always a fascinating list of, recipients, and it's always something that we keep a close eye on, as I'm sure you do at the Brain Tumour Trity. But the firefighter charityy, we do the same. Also, I want to pass on my congratulations to all those incredible members of the fire services community who were rightly recognised in the King's New Year's Honours. And we listed them all on, on the firefighters charities, website as well. So huge congratulations to all of them. But from the third sector, from, from the charity world in general. While the Celeebs might have got most of the headlines, we thought we'd pick out a few very deserving people from the charity world who were rightly recognised. So we've got quite a long list and we split it between us. So I'll kick off. First off is Michaela Beans, an 18 year old. she launched her own charity to grant wishes to children with cancer after she was diagnosed with brain cancer when she was only four years old. She is still undergoing treatment. Team Michela has raised £350,000. That's £350,000 since 24 and it's granted 220 wishes for seriously ill children. Michaela from Wantage in Oxfordshire was awarded a British Empire Medal be and was one of the youngest people honoured this year. So huge congratulations to Michikaela and very, very well deserved. On the other end of the age spectrum, the oldest recipient was World War II mosquito pilot Colin Bell. 103 years old, he was awarded a B.M. for his charity fundraising and public spe about Bomber Command.

Piers Townley: Sticking with beem m military veteran and former nurse John Hardy, 68, he walked 1,000 miles the COVID lockdowns to deliver prescriptions despite having lost his eyesight in 2014, Mr. Hardy said half of his be his British Empire medal should be awarded to his guide dog Sydney who guided him around as he made deliver this around his hometown of Bridgewater in Somerset. The Royal Army Medical Corps veteran who worked as a nurse for 40 years walked up to five miles a day with Sydney during the lockdown. It also works with several charities including Blind Veterans uk, the Veterans Breakfast Club and Dementia Action Alliance. Married couple Gail and Jason O'Sheee, both 58 were awarded MBE for their work with the charity Wipe Away those Tears which support terminally and seriously ill children in Essex. In 18 years the couple have raised more than 1.5 million and helped more than 1,000 children including donating specialist equipment to families to help encour with life changing illness and disability.

Tim Beynon: Bereaved mother Wendy Tarpley Morris, I hope I'pronounce that right. Who created a charity to provide wigs for children undergoing cancer treatment was also awarded an MBE. She co founded the Little Princess Trust after her daughter Hannah Tarply died from cancer in 2005 aged just five. There was also an MBE for music teacher Nathaniel Dy, 39, who has raised more than £37,000 from McMilller since he was diagnosed with terminal cancer in 2023. He has carried out challenges including running the London Marathon while playing the trombone and walking from Land's end to John O Groats.

Piers Townley: Three parents whose daughters were murdered by their ex partners were honoured for their campaign to tackle violence against women. Carol Gould and Julie Devi co founded Killed Women after the murders of their daughters Ellie Gould and Poppy Devi Waterhouse. They were both awarded obe.

Tim Beynon: And there were also honorss for many of those leading charities across the uk, including the founder of Roald Dahl's Marvelloous Children's charity and the Royaald Dahl Museum and Story Centre. Felicity and Dahl she was awarded a Dame Hood for services to philanthropy, to literature and to young people. Refuge Chair Hetty Barkworth Nanton has received a CBE for her services to people affected by domestic abuse and domestic homicide. And Andrew Scattergood, Chief Executive of the Royal Parks charity has been awarded a CBE for services to heritage and charity.

Piers Townley: Rene Olillieri, Chair of the National Trust has been awarded a CBE and also someone very close to the brain tumour charity's heart. A huge congratulations to consultant neurosurgeon Professor Kemore's Ashcan for much deserved recognition. Dr. Michell Afif, our CEO of the Brain tumour charity said he is a tireless advocate for excellence and compassion in patient care, fearless innovator in care delivery and a committed supporter to the brain tumour charity and all those dealing with a brain tumour diagnosis. Ash represents the very best of the NHS who usually work without public recognition or the expectation at what come because they are motivated by the patients they serve. Michelle carries on to say she's proud to call him a friend and a colleague and elsewhere on the Alzheimer's Society. Chief Executive Kailey she was awarded an

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Piers Townley: OBE for service to charity.

Tim Beynon: RN Alli Chair Janet Legrand has been awarded an OBE for services to young people from her time as chair of the Children's Society. And David Farnsworth, managing director of CityIT Bridge foundation and owner of Tower Bridge, has been awarded an OBE for services to the voluntary sector in London. Tony Collins, meanwhile deputy Chair of Hospice uk has also been awarded an OBE for services to healthcare and community.

Piers Townley: The British Heart Foundation's new Chief Scientific and Medical Officer, Brian Williams, has been awarded an OBE for services to medicine. The award is in recognition of the leading role he has played as a scientific and clinical leader in the uk. Elsewhere Diane Ruddock, External Affairs Manager for the National Trust in Northern Ireland, has been awarded an OBE for services to the environment, heritage and the community. And Alice Hendry, founder and Chief Executive of Ripple Suicide Prevention, has been awarded an MBE for services to online safety.

Tim Beynon: Stammer Vice Chair Deborah Johnston has received an MBE for her work around stammering in higher education. And Josephine Sagow and Vanessa Crocker, co founders of North London based charity Spread a Smile, have both been awarded an MBE for services to seriously and terminally ill children and their families. And that I think completes our list. Hopefully we haven't left anybody off, but I think you agree with what an amazing bunch of superstars this week. All very well deserved.

Piers Townley: Yeah, some incredible charities there, some incredible, figureheads, and some incredible inspiration for the UK charity sector.

Tim Beynon: So that's a wrap for episode 17. Huge thanks to Sally for shining a spotlight on the challenging world of major donor philanthropy. And there's plenty more to come as we re head into 2025 yearsers.

Piers Townley: There certainly is. In a fortnight's time, we're going to be joined by two young ambassadors to find out what drives them and what advice they offer other charities in regard to working with Gen Z's supporters.

Tim Beynon: I think you and I could do learning a bit about Gen Z ourselves peers, but there we go. We'll find out more in a couple of weeks time. Don't forget, you can be a part of the show too, whatever your role in the third sector. Just send us your voice messages or get in touch through re any of the links in the show notes to share your stories and tell us what you'd like us to cover.

Piers Townley: And of course we also want to know your superstar fundraisers, volunteers or colleagues, are too. So head to the Show Notes and share their brilliance with the rest of us.

Tim Beynon: And in the meantime, please follow or subscribe to us on your usual podcast platform and lead us a review, both of which will help others to find the show.

Piers Townley: So that's it for this episode of thanks for listening, Take care and we'll see you soon.

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